New Everton Stadium Discussion

I dont have much sympathy for the WHS argument, tbh. The cultural status of the city is secure imo. But I honestly dont think the council will move on the stadium and associate developments until the WHS is retained through negotiation.

Glad to read that Dave. As I understand from reading what has been posted the height restrictions such that it should not be any where approaching the 90 mtrs of the Liver Building, that would seem to be very restrictive on the development of Liverpool Waters. That surely would condemn the the development of the scheme as to what Peel would want, so the City is shackled to them (UNESCO) irrespective of the jobs or progress of the city to climb out of the derelict areas. A very blinkered approach from them.

The city needs this to proceed to climb up once more during the course of this century and the next to establish it self once more as a leading UK metropolis.
 
It's too late for that in terms of the BMD scheme. We should have looked for private and public partners to share the cost of the stadium, just like we had in place on all other schemes. This is way too big for us on our own...as said though, Moshiri is not arsed one bit about that, but the rest of the club;s ownership should and we all should too.

Side stepped my point there Dave. What is best for the Club's continued existence?
 
Joe aint no Churchill...although he does look like that dog on the Churchill's advert.

Thank god he is not Churchill or even Churchillian. Churchill owes his renown for a few nice speeches during the war etc but in reality Clem Atlee did more behind the scenes for the successful outcome. Many forget that Churchill quite a bit back ordered troops on to the streets to break up peaceful protests in which folk were killed. Go back prior to WW2 and Churchill left little to admire him for!
 
From today's Times, it's only a small mention but interesting nonetheless.

Richard Morrison: Will Liverpool be the first UK site to lose its Unesco heritage status?
Richard Morrison

methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fdd510e10-0767-11e8-8e80-008642e5faa1.png

At a cabinet meeting this morning Liverpool city council will make history, one way or another. Either it will endorse a report recommending the reversal of a 12-year-old policy that allowed vast high-rise developments on its historic waterfront. Or it won’t. And if it’s the latter, Unesco — which warned the city last year that it was on the verge of losing its status as a world heritage site — will almost certainly carry out its threat.

That would be a shame, in both senses of the word. Liverpool would be the first of the UK’s 27 world heritage sites to lose its designation, and only the fourth in the world, after the Arabian Oryx Sanctuary in Oman, the Dresden Elbe Valley in Germany and Bagrati Cathedral in Georgia. Does that matter? Unesco doesn’t give any money to its world heritage sites, so Liverpool wouldn’t lose funding, but the impact on tourism would be painful.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that many American and Asian tourists structure their travels round Unesco’s list. Indeed, tourism chiefs in the Lake District predict a £20 million annual boost to the local economy now that the area has finally been granted world heritage site status, after 31 years of trying.

methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fbebe1a72-17c7-11e8-a427-78e8af199a96.jpg

The proposed development at Liverpool WatersPEEL LAND AND PROPERTY
Liverpool’s councillors have had plenty of warnings about what would happen if they pushed ahead with insensitive redevelopments. As long ago as 2013 Unesco placed the city on its “endangered” list. That warning was itself a belated response to the rash 2006 decision by the former leader of Liverpool city council Warren Bradley to scrap building-height regulations, which he described as “ridiculous”.

So why did Liverpool persist with policies that jeopardised its world heritage status? There are two answers to this. The more general one is that the city council has always had an ambivalent attitude towards Liverpool’s fine stock of 18th and 19th-century architecture.

In 2015, for instance, 400 characterful Victorian terraced houses in the “Welsh Streets” of Toxteth were saved from council-approved demolition only by the intervention of Eric Pickles, in practically his last good deed as communities secretary. Since then many of those needlessly condemned houses have been restored as desirable homes for local families — something that could and should have happened 15 years earlier.

The more specific answer, however, is that — as in London and Manchester — Liverpool’s councillors have gone tower crazy. In 2012 they granted outline planning permission for a huge, £5 billion Merseyside development called Liverpool Waters. As originally envisaged, it would have monstrously overshadowed the docks and thus demeaned the city’s history as the “second port of the Empire”.

Perhaps, in this era of lingering post-colonial guilt, some local politicians felt that to be a good thing, but Unesco didn’t see it that way. It ruled that the size and height of Liverpool Waters would “fundamentally adversely affect” the world heritage site. Unesco is also worried by Everton Football Club’s plan to build a new stadium in Bramley-Moore Dock, which is also inside the world heritage site. It’s not hard to see why. Yes, in theory a 21st-century stadium could be designed with such scrupulous sensitivity that it complemented the brick Victorian maritime architecture around it. The trouble is that when you look at the bland glass and steel stadiums erected in the past 20 years, you can’t imagine such a thing happening.

Happily, the signs are that at today’s meeting Liverpool’s councillors will toe the Unesco line. That means endorsing a “desired state of conservation report”, drawn up in conjunction with Historic England and the government, that recommends what “corrective measures” the city’s planners must take. They include a new cap on building heights and a scaled-down version of Liverpool Waters.

It’s obvious that this is the right way forward. Or is it? Heritage guardians and anti-tower activists are certainly jubilant about Liverpool’s impending U-turn. The architect Barbara Weiss, founder of the Skyline campaign against unsightly high-rises, says the change of heart comes “not a second too early” because the redevelopments are destroying “the city’s uniquely grand and severe beauty”.

Possibly, but the reasons Liverpool’s councillors approved the schemes in the first place — the urgent need to provide thousands more homes and jobs in a city still mired in reminders of chronic economic decline — haven’t gone away. New development is still needed. What Unesco has done is remind everyone that you don’t make a city great again by trampling all over its most characterful features.
 
It's pretty hard to protest against something that hasn't been fully presented and still remains very much an idea. Make no mistake though, the size of this development will have repercussions for the region as a whole and I would suggest that indieman is making a pretty unassailable point that as a matter of course any such development would redraw the local plan and therefore need looking at. So what that the present government are ideologically on board with such schemes. Do you think New Labour weren't of the same mentality to this shower in power right now when they called DK in? I have to laugh at the peddling of two contradictory lines simultaneously by some on here: that this is simply too huge not to go ahead, too much of an economic driver to get knocked back...but then deny that its very hugeness is not a problem for anyone else!

Unreal.


Silly thing about this Dave is we are talking of filling in a derelict dock and building on the land thus created. If that is not done it will remain as a derelict dock for the next 100 years no doubt.
 

From today's Times, it's only a small mention but interesting nonetheless.

Richard Morrison: Will Liverpool be the first UK site to lose its Unesco heritage status?
Richard Morrison

methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fdd510e10-0767-11e8-8e80-008642e5faa1.png

At a cabinet meeting this morning Liverpool city council will make history, one way or another. Either it will endorse a report recommending the reversal of a 12-year-old policy that allowed vast high-rise developments on its historic waterfront. Or it won’t. And if it’s the latter, Unesco — which warned the city last year that it was on the verge of losing its status as a world heritage site — will almost certainly carry out its threat.

That would be a shame, in both senses of the word. Liverpool would be the first of the UK’s 27 world heritage sites to lose its designation, and only the fourth in the world, after the Arabian Oryx Sanctuary in Oman, the Dresden Elbe Valley in Germany and Bagrati Cathedral in Georgia. Does that matter? Unesco doesn’t give any money to its world heritage sites, so Liverpool wouldn’t lose funding, but the impact on tourism would be painful.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that many American and Asian tourists structure their travels round Unesco’s list. Indeed, tourism chiefs in the Lake District predict a £20 million annual boost to the local economy now that the area has finally been granted world heritage site status, after 31 years of trying.

methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fbebe1a72-17c7-11e8-a427-78e8af199a96.jpg

The proposed development at Liverpool WatersPEEL LAND AND PROPERTY
Liverpool’s councillors have had plenty of warnings about what would happen if they pushed ahead with insensitive redevelopments. As long ago as 2013 Unesco placed the city on its “endangered” list. That warning was itself a belated response to the rash 2006 decision by the former leader of Liverpool city council Warren Bradley to scrap building-height regulations, which he described as “ridiculous”.

So why did Liverpool persist with policies that jeopardised its world heritage status? There are two answers to this. The more general one is that the city council has always had an ambivalent attitude towards Liverpool’s fine stock of 18th and 19th-century architecture.

In 2015, for instance, 400 characterful Victorian terraced houses in the “Welsh Streets” of Toxteth were saved from council-approved demolition only by the intervention of Eric Pickles, in practically his last good deed as communities secretary. Since then many of those needlessly condemned houses have been restored as desirable homes for local families — something that could and should have happened 15 years earlier.

The more specific answer, however, is that — as in London and Manchester — Liverpool’s councillors have gone tower crazy. In 2012 they granted outline planning permission for a huge, £5 billion Merseyside development called Liverpool Waters. As originally envisaged, it would have monstrously overshadowed the docks and thus demeaned the city’s history as the “second port of the Empire”.

Perhaps, in this era of lingering post-colonial guilt, some local politicians felt that to be a good thing, but Unesco didn’t see it that way. It ruled that the size and height of Liverpool Waters would “fundamentally adversely affect” the world heritage site. Unesco is also worried by Everton Football Club’s plan to build a new stadium in Bramley-Moore Dock, which is also inside the world heritage site. It’s not hard to see why. Yes, in theory a 21st-century stadium could be designed with such scrupulous sensitivity that it complemented the brick Victorian maritime architecture around it. The trouble is that when you look at the bland glass and steel stadiums erected in the past 20 years, you can’t imagine such a thing happening.

Happily, the signs are that at today’s meeting Liverpool’s councillors will toe the Unesco line. That means endorsing a “desired state of conservation report”, drawn up in conjunction with Historic England and the government, that recommends what “corrective measures” the city’s planners must take. They include a new cap on building heights and a scaled-down version of Liverpool Waters.

It’s obvious that this is the right way forward. Or is it? Heritage guardians and anti-tower activists are certainly jubilant about Liverpool’s impending U-turn. The architect Barbara Weiss, founder of the Skyline campaign against unsightly high-rises, says the change of heart comes “not a second too early” because the redevelopments are destroying “the city’s uniquely grand and severe beauty”.

Possibly, but the reasons Liverpool’s councillors approved the schemes in the first place — the urgent need to provide thousands more homes and jobs in a city still mired in reminders of chronic economic decline — haven’t gone away. New development is still needed. What Unesco has done is remind everyone that you don’t make a city great again by trampling all over its most characterful features.


So has a decision been made and what is it?
 
Side stepped my point there Dave. What is best for the Club's continued existence?
Having a manageable financial burden from this potential stadium build. The club's continued existence certainly is not best served by loading well over half a billion quid onto it. There's a slowing down of tv cash now and we cant always expect to have that convenient fix for our finances.
 
From today's Times, it's only a small mention but interesting nonetheless.

Richard Morrison: Will Liverpool be the first UK site to lose its Unesco heritage status?
Richard Morrison

methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fdd510e10-0767-11e8-8e80-008642e5faa1.png

At a cabinet meeting this morning Liverpool city council will make history, one way or another. Either it will endorse a report recommending the reversal of a 12-year-old policy that allowed vast high-rise developments on its historic waterfront. Or it won’t. And if it’s the latter, Unesco — which warned the city last year that it was on the verge of losing its status as a world heritage site — will almost certainly carry out its threat.

That would be a shame, in both senses of the word. Liverpool would be the first of the UK’s 27 world heritage sites to lose its designation, and only the fourth in the world, after the Arabian Oryx Sanctuary in Oman, the Dresden Elbe Valley in Germany and Bagrati Cathedral in Georgia. Does that matter? Unesco doesn’t give any money to its world heritage sites, so Liverpool wouldn’t lose funding, but the impact on tourism would be painful.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that many American and Asian tourists structure their travels round Unesco’s list. Indeed, tourism chiefs in the Lake District predict a £20 million annual boost to the local economy now that the area has finally been granted world heritage site status, after 31 years of trying.

methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fbebe1a72-17c7-11e8-a427-78e8af199a96.jpg

The proposed development at Liverpool WatersPEEL LAND AND PROPERTY
Liverpool’s councillors have had plenty of warnings about what would happen if they pushed ahead with insensitive redevelopments. As long ago as 2013 Unesco placed the city on its “endangered” list. That warning was itself a belated response to the rash 2006 decision by the former leader of Liverpool city council Warren Bradley to scrap building-height regulations, which he described as “ridiculous”.

So why did Liverpool persist with policies that jeopardised its world heritage status? There are two answers to this. The more general one is that the city council has always had an ambivalent attitude towards Liverpool’s fine stock of 18th and 19th-century architecture.

In 2015, for instance, 400 characterful Victorian terraced houses in the “Welsh Streets” of Toxteth were saved from council-approved demolition only by the intervention of Eric Pickles, in practically his last good deed as communities secretary. Since then many of those needlessly condemned houses have been restored as desirable homes for local families — something that could and should have happened 15 years earlier.

The more specific answer, however, is that — as in London and Manchester — Liverpool’s councillors have gone tower crazy. In 2012 they granted outline planning permission for a huge, £5 billion Merseyside development called Liverpool Waters. As originally envisaged, it would have monstrously overshadowed the docks and thus demeaned the city’s history as the “second port of the Empire”.

Perhaps, in this era of lingering post-colonial guilt, some local politicians felt that to be a good thing, but Unesco didn’t see it that way. It ruled that the size and height of Liverpool Waters would “fundamentally adversely affect” the world heritage site. Unesco is also worried by Everton Football Club’s plan to build a new stadium in Bramley-Moore Dock, which is also inside the world heritage site. It’s not hard to see why. Yes, in theory a 21st-century stadium could be designed with such scrupulous sensitivity that it complemented the brick Victorian maritime architecture around it. The trouble is that when you look at the bland glass and steel stadiums erected in the past 20 years, you can’t imagine such a thing happening.

Happily, the signs are that at today’s meeting Liverpool’s councillors will toe the Unesco line. That means endorsing a “desired state of conservation report”, drawn up in conjunction with Historic England and the government, that recommends what “corrective measures” the city’s planners must take. They include a new cap on building heights and a scaled-down version of Liverpool Waters.

It’s obvious that this is the right way forward. Or is it? Heritage guardians and anti-tower activists are certainly jubilant about Liverpool’s impending U-turn. The architect Barbara Weiss, founder of the Skyline campaign against unsightly high-rises, says the change of heart comes “not a second too early” because the redevelopments are destroying “the city’s uniquely grand and severe beauty”.

Possibly, but the reasons Liverpool’s councillors approved the schemes in the first place — the urgent need to provide thousands more homes and jobs in a city still mired in reminders of chronic economic decline — haven’t gone away. New development is still needed. What Unesco has done is remind everyone that you don’t make a city great again by trampling all over its most characterful features.


As predicted, LCC want to retain WHS at all costs. @roydo
 
Silly thing about this Dave is we are talking of filling in a derelict dock and building on the land thus created. If that is not done it will remain as a derelict dock for the next 100 years no doubt.
As said, I have no concern with WHS status. It seems to me that the city's heritage is well secured in any cases - both in terms of dockland buildings and places like William Brown Street where the museum/art gallery/old magistrates court/St Georges Hall are pretty impressive; and the city is only second to London in terms of Georgian buildings preserved.

My point on this UNESCO stuff is that it's an obstacle. A big one. And others have sought, in their haste to get to the first spade in the ground stage, to downplay this problem.
 

I think there can be compromise, although it might mean going back to the drawing board on many aspects of the development all told...and that could delay the stadium.

Seems to be the stadium design and development in isolation shouldn't be the issue. Meis isn't a dummy; if anything, a new stadium would enhance the status and help complement the already existing areas. Just tough to tell how the rest of the development would hurt the status, but hard to ignore that it wouldn't be a delay.
 
I think there can be compromise, although it might mean going back to the drawing board on many aspects of the development all told...and that could delay the stadium.

Indeed. That article hardly mentioned the ground, but when it did it made a swinging assumption that, to paraphrase, it will be crap/out of keeping.

How about it complements the site, and UNESCO say "Wowzers"?
 

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