NBA/ Basketball thread

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In 2006 he was elite, without question. Just because he didn't have the staying power of the others, doesn't change how damn good he was in that series.

And Hakeem should never be listed as worst anything.

I feel for Russ - he was amazing these past few months.

Wade has been playing at a top level all his career, he was good last year even in the playoffs (until the finals that is). Had some fantastic games this season as well, shame Bosh got injured, I wanted a Heat v Cavs play off series.

Not trying to be an argumentative arl-arse (which I am), just trying to point out how exceptionally elite the club of NBA Champions has become. Personally, I think Hakeem is better than Shaq and probably #3 or #4 all time big men, but most don't see it that way. Wade is tremendous, as was Hakeem, but it is very difficult to win a title.
 
Not trying to be an argumentative arl-arse (which I am), just trying to point out how exceptionally elite the club of NBA Champions has become. Personally, I think Hakeem is better than Shaq and probably #3 or #4 all time big men, but most don't see it that way. Wade is tremendous, as was Hakeem, but it is very difficult to win a title.
They are wrong.

Although Shaq vs Hakeem is a fair argument. I'm just judging based on the year of the win rather than careers. In my opinion (which is always objectively accurate) Wade deserves more credit for 06 than Kobe deserves for his first two titles. Now, Kobe is a better all time player, sure. But 2006 Wade was better than 2000 Kobe.

Winning in the NBA requires a top shelf talent for sure. But that talent needs to be top shelf that year not all time. Often those are one in the same (see 99% of those listed), but they don't have to be.

Given that criteria who would be players this year that could carry a team to a title?
Harden, Curry, Lebron (obviously), Russ (sadface), and Davis.

Davis, Harden (and obviously Russ) don't have the pieces to do it on their own this year, and Davis is still a year or two out from that frankly not mattering.

San Antonio have enough pieces that even though no single Spur can be classed today as that level, they could still pull it out. And they have Pop, which is kind of like having a top tier player.

In the end I agree with you. I can't see past Cleveland or Golden State. San Antonio is going to run a gauntlet, Harden doesn't have enough help. Davis isn't ready. The Hawks peaked too early (and the whole Thabo thing). I guess the Clippers could surprise me, but I doubt it.

The rest just make up the field.
 
They are wrong.

Although Shaq vs Hakeem is a fair argument. I'm just judging based on the year of the win rather than careers. In my opinion (which is always objective accurate) Wade deserves more credit for 06 than Kobe deserves for his first two titles. Now, Kobe is a better all time player, sure. But 2006 Wade was better than 2000 Kobe.

Winning in the NBA requires a top shelf talent for sure. But that talent needs to be top shelf that year not all time. Often those are one in the same (see 99% of those listed), but they don't have to be.

Given that criteria who would be players this year that could carry a team to a title?
Harden, Curry, Lebron (obviously), Russ (sadface), and Davis.

Davis, Harden (and obviously Russ) don't have the pieces to do it on their own this year, and Davis is still a year or two out from that frankly not mattering.

San Antonio have enough pieces that even though no single Spur can be classes today as that level, they could still pull it out. And they have Pop, which is kind of like having a top tier player.

In the end I agree with you. I can't see past Cleveland or Golden State. San Antonio is going to run a gauntlet, Harden doesn't have enough help. Davis isn't ready. The Hawks peaked too early (and the whole Thabo thing). I guess the Clippers could surprise me, but I doubt it.

The rest just make up the field.

This is a better argument than mine moving forward, but looking at the data it's hard to deny that it is exceptionally difficult to win without an all-time top-shelf player, not just someone who was great that year. If you'll let me exclude the Garnett/Pierce/Allen 2008 Celtics, 33 of the previous 35 Champions (94%) require one player that is at least as good as Isaiah/Dirk. I'll stop short of creating some ridiculous model for how to win (or at least I'll try), but I don't think this can be ignored.
 
This is a better argument than mine moving forward, but looking at the data it's hard to deny that it is exceptionally difficult to win without an all-time top-shelf player, not just someone who was great that year. If you'll let me exclude the Garnett/Pierce/Allen 2008 Celtics, 33 of the previous 35 Champions (94%) require one player that is at least as good as Isaiah/Dirk. I'll stop short of creating some ridiculous model for how to win (or at least I'll try), but I don't think this can be ignored.
I agree, but I think that tends to be because all time great players always have exceptional seasons. One off exceptional seasons are far more rare. And with a one off exceptional season a team is less likely to have all the moving parts necessary to win a title.

Look at Westbrook this season. He was an absolute monster. A freak beyond words. Bad injury luck for the team and he was playing with scrubs in a loaded Conference. If he's all time great, he'll have many more seasons like this for the stars to align.

For a non-all time great player to do it requires a hell of a convergence of:
A) Not all timer having an extreme outlier year
B) Having that year while surrounded with a supporting cast that is not fatally flawed (including not having a moron coach)
C) No all timer with a great team standing in your path
 
I agree, but I think that tends to be because all time great players always have exceptional seasons. One off exceptional seasons are far more rare. And with a one off exceptional season a team is less likely to have all the moving parts necessary to win a title.

Look at Westbrook this season. He was an absolute monster. A freak beyond words. Bad injury luck for the team and he was playing with scrubs in a loaded Conference. If he's all time great, he'll have many more seasons like this for the stars to align.

For a non-all time great player to do it requires a hell of a convergence of:
A) Not all timer having an extreme outlier year
B) Having that year while surrounded with a supporting cast that is not fatally flawed (including not having a moron coach)
C) No all timer with a great team standing in your path

Hard to meet all these requirements. The 2004 Pistons and the 2008 Celtics both beat Kobe, which to me is the most damning of all arguments against him. Dr J won, but not without Moses Malone (settle me down before I argue against Dr J being an all-time great), and although Wade is a top player, he needed help from another. Hakeem and Dirk both got it done, but not without help (on the team and with the competition). Barkley, Iverson, and Nash never got it done. Wilt struggled quite a bit with Russell's Celtics. And the biggest exclusions are almost certainly Stockton and Karl Malone, although Malone isn't quite top-shelf for me.
 
Hard to meet all these requirements. The 2004 Pistons and the 2008 Celtics both beat Kobe, which to me is the most damning of all arguments against him. Dr J won, but not without Moses Malone (settle me down before I argue against Dr J being an all-time great), and although Wade is a top player, he needed help from another. Hakeem and Dirk both got it done, but not without help (on the team and with the competition). Barkley, Iverson, and Nash never got it done. Wilt struggled quite a bit with Russell's Celtics. And the biggest exclusions are almost certainly Stockton and Karl Malone, although Malone isn't quite top-shelf for me.
They generally all do though. Jordan had Pippen, who, if you'll recall led the Bulls to 55 wins in 93-94. Ducan had Robinson in 99, and Parker/Manu since (and Pop).

Bird had...the rest of the team. So did Isaiah. While it's a star-driven league, you can't win it without a couple of absolutely brilliant players with the exception of the freak Pistons win. The Celtics may not have had an all time great, but Pierce, Garnett, and Allen all knock on the door and were in their primes.
 
Think ESPN have had articles looking at the stars required to win championships in the NBA. Generally you need two top level stars - Kobe, Shaq; Jordan, Pippen - or 3/4 stars just under that level, inc 1 top level star if poss - Miami last couple years, Celtics in 08, Pistons in 04/5 was it?

This year I see it being 1 from SA, GS or Cle. Would love for the Bulls to be in the conversation, but given all the issues this year I can't see them getting past Cle.

Re: Clippers, they're good but not great. They're no match for the SAs and GSs. Them against the Lakers is more Tranmere/Liverpool than Everton/Liverpool, but I hope they can stay relevant going forward.
 
game was tied with 3 seconds left in the chicago bull v cleveland playoff match

they give the ball to rose he shoots a 3 pointer and wins the game in the last second.
 
game was tied with 3 seconds left in the chicago bull v cleveland playoff match

they give the ball to rose he shoots a 3 pointer and wins the game in the last second.



Was a crazy good game. Both teams/stars shot badly, but it was tight, back and forth, real play off basketball. Glad I stayed up for it this time!
 
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