2020/21 Marcel Brands

[lungo]

So the good signings from last window are Ancelotti’s but the bad ones (after a handful of games) are Brands? Convenient arrangement

So fare with the exception of Allan there hasnt been a good signing. Rodriguez has to many flaws in his game to be (at that price) a good signing. He is showboating and has a clever flick from time to time but doesnt defend, is physical not made for the premier league. Will be back to warmer climates at the end of the season!

 

[Lanolin]

You do realise beyond a manager saying "come play for me" there's still a lot to do to actually get said player here?

Just a manager wanting someone doesn't make players take pay cuts (Rodriguez) or clubs accept low fees (Allan).

But you surely realise that if we didn't have a DoF at all somebody would still be doing that job? He may be a good negotiator (although many of the fees we've paid cast a fair bit of doubt on that) but his job is to oversee football matters. His remit clearly is supposed to include identifying players, not just negotiating for them. It's a fair point then, that he hasn't necessarily had too many successes when doing that.

 

[catcherintherye]

But you surely realise that if we didn't have a DoF at all somebody would still be doing that job? He may be a good negotiator (although many of the fees we've paid cast a fair bit of doubt on that) but his job is to oversee football matters. His remit clearly is supposed to include identifying players, not just negotiating for them. It's a fair point then, that he hasn't necessarily had too many successes when doing that.

I actually think there is a case for Brands being both a good negotiator but at times a fairly limited assessor of players thus far. I mean most of our signings have been from quite a small pool of leagues, but in general we have negotiated teams down quite well.

The hope will be he is now only really putting some finishing touches on his recruitment team. So the hope will be we will see more "obscure" type signings. There is a legitimate question to be asked about why it's taken 2 12 years to set up these scouting changes though. I could be completmely on board with the idea in 2013 you don't rock the boatd too much, as the system Moyes had was good, but by 2018 that certainly didn't seem the case.

I can't really work the Brands situation out. He seems fairly blaise to me in a lot of his approach. Strangely for a Dutchman he doesn't seem to want to take too many big decisions or fall out with people. In an org that is running well thats a strength, but in an org and an area that has struggled perhaps less so?

One thing I will say, is that Brainthwaite and Nknonkou seem good buys and he's got Gordon tied down to a long term deal. I thinnk if we can get more of those type of signings people will be more forgiving of him!

 

[Lanolin]

I actually think there is a case for Brands being both a good negotiator but at times a fairly limited assessor of players thus far. I mean most of our signings have been from quite a small pool of leagues, but in general we have negotiated teams down quite well.

The hope will be he is now only really putting some finishing touches on his recruitment team. So the hope will be we will see more "obscure" type signings. There is a legitimate question to be asked about why it's taken 2 12 years to set up these scouting changes though. I could be completmely on board with the idea in 2013 you don't rock the boatd too much, as the system Moyes had was good, but by 2018 that certainly didn't seem the case.

I can't really work the Brands situation out. He seems fairly blaise to me in a lot of his approach. Strangely for a Dutchman he doesn't seem to want to take too many big decisions or fall out with people. In an org that is running well thats a strength, but in an org and an area that has struggled perhaps less so?

One thing I will say, is that Brainthwaite and Nknonkou seem good buys and he's got Gordon tied down to a long term deal. I thinnk if we can get more of those type of signings people will be more forgiving of him!

I don't think you can separate the two really. Like if I go in to a pub and the barman wants to charge me £10 for a pint of Carling but I manage to get it for £7.50, that isn't good negotiating. I might have reduced his asking price, but it still isn't a good deal because I could get the same product much cheaper elsewhere. The same applies here. Clubs will always want to get the best possible price for their players. Negotiating that price down is the easy bit; negotiating it down to a level where you're actually getting value is the hard bit.

 

[Brendan Janus]

Brands is a clown !!!

 

[catcherintherye]

I don't think you can separate the two really. Like if I go in to a pub and the barman wants to charge me £10 for a pint of carling but I manage to get it for £7.50, that isn't good negotiating. I might have reduced his asking price, but it still isn't a good deal because I could get the same product much cheaper elsewhere. The same applies here. Clubs will always want to get the best possible price for their players. Negotiating that price down is the easy bit; negotiating it down to a level where you're actually getting value is the hard bit.

Yes well put.

I'm not sure if you've done much negotiation in your day job, and I've certainly not done it to the level and figures of Brands but there are a lot of myths around it (made worse by shows like the Apprentice). Product identification (or whatever it is called) is going to be the biggest thing you can do in negotiation. Your pub analogy is a good one so I'll run with it, but you need to work out how much money you have to spend, what sort of night out do you want, what sort of lager you like etc and then have a look at what sort of pubs have the cheapest lager. That is going to get you 90% of the way there. The bit about getting some extra off, which is the bit people focus on is really the end of the process.

Going to clubs like Watford, for players on long contracts is not going to get you particularly good deals. At the time we did, probably going to Barcelona wasnt either. He's probably been a bit fortunate now, as he's stumbled upon a good area (older players, who's values are declining) thanks to Ancelotti's demands and he has negotiated great deals on Allan/James.

I suppose I'd just like to see a more consistent plan from him to be honest. In recent years, the best buys we've had have really been Steve Walsh (Gueye) and David Unsworth (Calvert Lewin).

 

[GwladysBlue]

People who defend Marcel Brands because of Steve Walsh remind me of the Conservatives blaming Labour for all of their failing from Labour’s time in power years ago.

 

[Lanolin]

Yes well put.

I'm not sure if you've done much negotiation in your day job, and I've certainly not done it to the level and figures of Brands but there are a lot of myths around it (made worse by shows like the Apprentice). Product identification (or whatever it is called) is going to be the biggest thing you can do in negotiation. Your pub analogy is a good one so I'll run with it, but you need to work out how much money you have to spend, what sort of night out do you want, what sort of lager you like etc and then have a look at what sort of pubs have the cheapest lager. That is going to get you 90% of the way there. The bit about getting some extra off, which is the bit people focus on is really the end of the process.

Going to clubs like Watford, for players on long contracts is not going to get you particularly good deals. At the time we did, probably going to Barcelona wasnt either. He's probably been a bit fortunate now, as he's stumbled upon a good area (older players, who's values are declining) thanks to Ancelotti's demands and he has negotiated great deals on Allan/James.

I suppose I'd just like to see a more consistent plan from him to be honest. In recent years, the best buys we've had have really been Steve Walsh (Gueye) and David Unsworth (Calvert Lewin).

Yeah i'm pretty familiar with procurement in a business sense. I'm obviously focusing on the price because that's where his negotiation comes in. So we can't say 'he's not very good at identifying players but he is good at getting rubbish players cheaper than the asking price', because the fact that they're rubbish players is very relevant to the asking price. I don't think he's brought in a single 'bargain' since he's been here (possibly James but the details of that seem sketchy). Even if you look at Richarlison and Allan as him not identifying them and just negotiating, he hasn't been fleeced but he hasn't necessarily got great deals for them. I mean Richarlison had cost about a quarter of what we paid just 12 months earlier, it was a pretty good deal for Watford.

 

[ArtetaMagic]

So fare with the exception of Allan there hasnt been a good signing. Rodriguez has to many flaws in his game to be (at that price) a good signing. He is showboating and has a clever flick from time to time but doesnt defend, is physical not made for the premier league. Will be back to warmer climates at the end of the season!

So you're blaming Brands or Carlo? Just so we know.

 

[davek]

Article on The Athletic doesn’t paint him in the best light today. If Utd want him I’ll gladly give him a lift.

If he gets to keep his job it will be ENTIRLEY down to the wishes of Ancelotti - who now has Brands where he wants him: doing what he asks of him.

As the article highlights (and when you strip out all the flannel about being "respected from the Bernabeu to Turin") his time here has been largely a failure.

 

[Cels]

If he gets to keep his job it will be ENTIRLEY down to the wishes of Ancelotti - who now has Brands where he wants him: doing what he asks of him.

As the article highlights (and when you strip out all the flannel about being "respected from the Bernabeu to Turin") his time here has been largely a failure.

​

But isn't that what a Brands does anyway? I believed that it was the job of Marcel Brands to do the managers' 'bidding', so to speak, for him.

Apart from Big Sam alluding to such a thing about Tosun(?), I don't recall any of our managers stating that they didn't choose the players brought in and that they were chosen for them by the DOF.
In fact, I thought the idea of a DOF was that the manager tells him which player/s he wants, then the DOF goes to the relevant club/s to enquire about their availability and trash out the best deal possible for his own club.

I've not read the 'The Athletic' article, by the way.

​

 

[davek]

​

But isn't that what a Brands does anyway? I believed that it was the job of Marcel Brands to do the managers' 'bidding', so to speak, for him.

Apart from Big Sam alluding to such a thing about Tosun(?), I don't recall any of our managers stating that they didn't choose the players brought in and that they were chosen for them by the DOF.
In fact, I thought the idea of a DOF was that the manager tells him which player/s he wants, then the DOF goes to the relevant club/s to enquire about their availability and trash out the best deal possible for his own club.

I've not read the 'The Athletic' article, by the way.

​

Silva's relationship with Brands was different. It was all about agreeing with the philosophy of the club over players to be purchased; a typology.

That's out the window now and Brands is basically Contract Marcel, agreeing to any big price purchase that Ancelotti wants.

 

[blue to the bone]

 

[neilsyd]

This model for Everton just isn’t working. Under Moyes we consistently punched above our weight. Meaning we were finishing above teams by spending less in the transfer market. That is the sign of a good transfer policy. Right now, we are finishing below teams we spend considerably more than. The opposite applies. Now it’s deemed far too difficult for managers to put in the required time to identify players but it’s not like managers salaries are split between themselves and the DOF. Quite the opposite. There’s a big scouting system in place and I’d suggest that the majority of signings come from the ground roots guys suggestions before it gets to someone like Brands. It appears that his role is more of a delegation, and ultimate decision maker. You used to see Moyes at games many years ago, whilst still managing and coaching our team. Has anyone ever seen Brands in the stands somewhere watching a match? It just doesn’t apply these days as there’s far too many chefs, all getting a slice of the pie for what at the moment is a far worse result.
It’s so ironic that we moan about getting players off the wage bill when in reality there are far more staff on our wage bill than required in this failing model.
Surely Ancelotti can just have scouts doing the work rather than this guy being paid a fortune to just be the middle man???

 

[BarryThompson1]

If he signs a new contract then I wont be giving the club a penney of mine . Total fecking joke if he stays at this club , what a bell end he is .