Dissent against Moyes, when?

[steken1]

Seriously though, how can anyone call the Moyes era "managed decline" & expect to be taken seriously?

The simple facts show that that statement is totally false.

Our league finishes in the PL era;


1992-93 13th
1993-94 17th
1994-95 15th
1995-96 6th
1996-97 15th
1997-98 17th
1998-99 14th
1999-2k 13th
2000-01 16th
2001-02 15th
2002-03 7th
2003-04 17th
2004-05 4th
2005-06 11th
2006-07 6th
2007-08 5th
2008-09 5th
2009-10 8th
2010-11 7th
2011-12 7th

I challenge anyone to explain to me how given the above facts, the Moyes era constitutes "managed decline"

Go and show any Evertonian from any other era of our history those results, bar the PL era, and they will state that they would expect better and they are not good enough for a club like Everton, now a wide base of fans rejoice as if we've stormed the league coming 5th, 7th etc.

I haven't got a problem recognizing them as remarkable considering Moyes constraints, but I also recognize the man contiually praises the main reason for those constraints. A more bizzarre set-up you could not find.

 

[Goat]

When we lost Rooney.

I'd been told by one of the scouts a year before that Moyes methods were simply Sarge Major stuff and his man management was non-existent the better players didn't rate him particularly Big Dunc and Rooney simply couldn't stand him.

TBH I thought he'd be gone and it'd sort itself, a new guy would come in realise what we had in Rooney and while thanking Moyes for his stabilising job get on with what this club historically does - challenge for honours.

Not for a moment could I see the "7th place trophy" via any means being the crowning glory and worse still accepted as such by a whole swathe of Evertonians.

Clearly it's mostly a generational thing if you haven't seen good football 7th becomes marvellous particularly if referencing the 2 relegation battles as archetypal EFC - it really isn't.

So the prophetic words of said scout that Rooney would go if Moyes remained, something unthinkable at the time, come to pass and while time is a great healer it was a killer blow which soured my view of Moyes the miracle worker.

"On 1 September 2006, Everton manager David Moyes sued Rooney for libel after the tabloid newspaper the Daily Mail published excerpts from Rooney's 2006 autobiography that accused the manager of leaking Rooney's reasons for leaving the club to the press.[222] The case was settled out of court for £500,000 on 3 June 2008, and Rooney apologised to Moyes for "false claims" he had made in the book regarding the matter."


Your next lad, consult your lawyers.

 

[Ihaters]

Claiming people with valid opinions are spouting cliches is well on it's way to becoming one in it's own right. Why not read what people write and think and try to understand what they are talking about. It's a novel concept but it may end up being worthwhile.

Sorry mate didn't mean to upset you, is it the first time you have heard the term Managed Decline from an Anti Board/Anti Moyes supporter?

Explain to me where I don't understand what is written, explain where I have not read?
Those two things may seem as novel to you as the managed decline cliche but most of us have been doing it for many years. I am no exception and I know exactly what he is saying, he couldn't be further from my opinion if he tries though, in fact his opinion is simply anything that shows the most contempt for the board and manager.. I tend to be more open to both sides of things. His view is fine, but I get bored of the same old cliches, he'll be calling me an Appologist and telling me I am the reason the club is in the state it is soon.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Go and show any Evertonian from any other era of our history those results, bar the PL era, and they will state that they would expect better and they are not good enough for a club like Everton, now a wide base of fans rejoice as if we've stormed the league coming 5th, 7th etc.

I haven't got a problem recognizing them as remarkable considering Moyes constraints, but I also recognize the man contiually praises the main reason for those constraints. A more bizzarre set-up you could not find.

I think that's fantasy myself. Aside from our 3 glory years in the 80's our league finishes weren't startling since the League winning side of 1970.

To suggest that we should be "expecting" better is delusional imo. We should be striving to be the best we can be, & in the current era until somone chooses to bestow half a Billion £'s on us, realistically we're never going to challenge for the title. Talk about ambition & try & point the finger of 'blame' for this fact wherever you like mate, but it'll still remain a fact.

 

[davek]

So, just so we're being very clear - Moyes has managed "decline" during his tenure?

Ergo, we're in a worse position now than we were when he arrived? That would be the definition, n'est pas?

I cant believe I'm having to answer that question. Yes, we are. In almost all respects we're a weaker organisation than when Kenwright took over: less money to spend/worse stadium/opposition well left us behind; and Moyes' task is to help manage expectations to ease the medicine down, that's why he says at every point that top half finishes are the objective.

So, just to underline it for you: we are in decline...and it's being managed.

 

[nigelcoyb]

"On 1 September 2006, Everton manager David Moyes sued Rooney for libel after the tabloid newspaper the Daily Mail published excerpts from Rooney's 2006 autobiography that accused the manager of leaking Rooney's reasons for leaving the club to the press.[222] The case was settled out of court for £500,000 on 3 June 2008, and Rooney apologised to Moyes for "false claims" he had made in the book regarding the matt



Your next lad, consult your lawyers.

What an irrational boy you are.

 

[Goat]

What an irrational boy you are.

David Moyes mate.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

I cant believe I'm having to answer that question. Yes, we are. In almost all respects we're a weaker organisation than when Kenwright took over: less money to spend/worse stadium/opposition well left us behind; and Moyes' task is to help manage expectations to ease the medicine down, that's why he says at every point that top half finishes are the objective.

So, just to underline it for you: we are in decline...and it's being managed.

How has this 'decline' manifested itself on the pitch then?

Show me how you can back up the theory of Moyes overseeing "managed decline" with anything other than your subjective baseless opinion?

 

[wasp29]

Why ,when we have just had our best start to a seoson for years, does this thread appear and start generating negativity ?? Lets enjoy why it lasts andvhope our fine form continues . If we lose 7-8 games on the bounce then we will discuss this thread . You will all be gutted when he leaves and we get ****ing steve bruce or some ****e to take over!!!!

 

[Seamus Colemole]

Listening to him on the radio the other night after the Villa win gives us a 6 point start and he says in answer to a question about fan expectations: "Evertonians have no great expectations. I dont think that's an issue as far as they're concerned".

He's right. A decade of his mate Kenwright - and his putting up with not having funds to push on - has just about snuffed out expectations beyond staying comfortably in the PL.

The Kenwright/Moyes years needs to be seen for what it is: managed decline.

Go and show any Evertonian from any other era of our history those results, bar the PL era, and they will state that they would expect better and they are not good enough for a club like Everton, now a wide base of fans rejoice as if we've stormed the league coming 5th, 7th etc.

I haven't got a problem recognizing them as remarkable considering Moyes constraints, but I also recognize the man contiually praises the main reason for those constraints. A more bizzarre set-up you could not find.

Yeah, i believe what Dave was referring to was a managed decline in terms of expectations.

"We'll go with what we've got", "Like taking a knife to a gunfight", "I couldn't ask for a better chairman".

Finishing 7th. Reaching a couple of semi finals.

Would the above have been accepted by Everton fans so readily in 1982? I doubt it. 1992? I doubt it.

1998? No. Relief at not being relegated sure, but still accepting mid table? Accepting not signing a first team player for 2 and a half years? No.

2012? Seems the answer is yes. Why Because thats the reality of the position we find ourselves in? Yeah. because people are too quick to accept that reality instead of questioning why that reality exists.

Because the managed decline in the acceptance of standards at Everton football club allows it, and the people to blame for that are the people in charge. The board and David Moyes.

However as Steken1 points out, in a weird paradox Moyes is also responsible for us doing far far better than we should be considering how far we've declined off the pitch.

Maybe if we had Megson in charge we'd all be demanding Champiopns league qualifcation at the very minimum. But maybe we'd be saying that whilst finishing 17th.

 

[davek]

How has this 'decline' manifested itself on the pitch then?

Show me how you can back up the theory of Moyes overseeing "managed decline" with anything other than your subjective baseless opinion?

Why are you separating Kenwright from this when it was central to the original assertion? Under his stewardship we've been left behind by half a dozen clubs who are so far ahead now in terms of spending and infrastructure and business models they may as well be in another league. And at the risk of repeating myself again, Moyes has managed that drift by backing the owner(s) up and dumbing down expectations of real success. He gets 6th/7th place as opposed to 14th/15th place? Sound. Enjoy the achievement, such as it is.

 

[nigelcoyb]

How has this 'decline' manifested itself on the pitch then?

Show me how you can back up the theory of Moyes overseeing "managed decline" with anything other than your subjective baseless opinion?

Decline is manifest in expectation.

Everton years of the 70s were looked on as absolute sh1te possibly some of the worst in our history cos after 1970 we never won anything.

In hindsight we come close to winning the league competed for top players in the transfer market were a gnats bollock from tw@tting liverpool in the semi final and nearly won the league cup against Villa.

On top of that we never, I repeat, never accepted anyone else was bigger, better or in any way superior to us. This led to umpteen protests and changes of manager till we got it right circa Kendal early 80s.

To suggest what has happened in these last 10 years is in any way better than what was looked on as sh1te back then is a lie. The idea that everything references to 2 relegation fights in the 90s is garbage, and btw we won something then!

 

[njligernj]

I'm seeing a lot less of it lately since I started taking advantage of the ignore feature. All these Moyes threads should be merged into one. They are all the same. It's not the difference of opinion which bothers me it's the relentless droning repetitive nature of it all. Summer may have had good intentions and genuine curiosity about the different between match goers and the internets but inevitably the usual suspects show up to drag it all down. I'd take solace in the fact that match going Evertonians don't **** off Moyes as much but then on the other hand we have those who clapped.

After a Boxing Day crashing out to Man Utd in 2001 I basically refused to go to the match again until the 2006/7 season

So 2001 was Smith. So firing Smith and getting Moyes didn't make you want to go to a game to check out the new man? Then 04/05 didn't make you want to go to a game or two? 04/05 was so much fun! Then it wasn't even fourth place which got you back since you skipped 05/06 too! This just boggles my mind.

I hate the board and want them out but if I denied myself the fun (which it can be at times -- especially the last two weeks) of watching my team then what am I bothering being a fan for? Not having a go or getting into any of that "real fan" nonsense -- I just genuinely find it strange that you took such a long break. Do you regret it in any way?

 

[steken1]

Sorry mate didn't mean to upset you, is it the first time you have heard the term Managed Decline from an Anti Board/Anti Moyes supporter?

Explain to me where I don't understand what is written, explain where I have not read?
Those two things may seem as novel to you as the managed decline cliche but most of us have been doing it for many years. I am no exception and I know exactly what he is saying, he couldn't be further from my opinion if he tries though, in fact his opinion is simply anything that shows the most contempt for the board and manager.. I tend to be more open to both sides of things. His view is fine, but I get bored of the same old cliches, he'll be calling me an Appologist and telling me I am the reason the club is in the state it is soon.

You didn't upset me. And I think he and I have been more than clear about the reason the clubs in the state it is. I don't consider you an apologist either. Your entitled to your opinion and when you post one I'll read it and take it on it's merits not try and lump you into a brigade.

 

[Guest89]

I actually quite like the way that even though every member of the press praise Moyes as if he is infalliable, we the people who watch him week in week out are not afraid to call him on his mistakes and failings. The guy has done a cracking job without question, but he still has faults, he still makes mistakes and we are realisitic to call that and challenge it. I don't know many at all who 'hate him', I know plenty who get frustrated with him, maybe sometimes harshly but that is only human. He is too cautious sometimes and he does retreat at the most ridiculous times (semi final being the most obvious examples - but throughout his time here there have been plenty of other examples, I remember a City home game and a Spurs home game, both last minute defensive retreats costing us games, which highlighted this). I believe our supporters actually keep him on his toes, we do let him know when we aren't happy, nad that is a healthy relationship.

If we all followed blindly and praised him as the next messiah even though he has obvious failings and refused to criticise him and acknowledge those failings, well, there is another band of supporters who do that, and it is frankly cringeworthy and is actually an extremely unhealthy relationship which inevitably leads to disaster...say no more.

I got 3 posts in and read this, which I agree with entirely