I'm not sure that's accurate to be fair. I'm not saying we should be playing him, I haven't seen enough of him to have an opinion either way, but all the reports were that Bayern rated him very highly and had tried to give him a taste of first team football to ensure he'd stay but he chose to move. If that's true I don't think it's fair to say either that his lack of game time (at the age of 18) was 'damning' or that he was 'shipped out'.
So no risk at all ever and 1 minute per month for young players is okay then, because he might be crticised?
Like I get your point, but that's prime Moyes thinking.
He'll always have haters, he's in a position where that's a given and I'd say even expected - he'll do no right/wrong in many people's eyes, it's the nature of the game. Even SAF wasn't beyond haters like that, and he was winning loads. An argument is to be made whether he's doing his best here - he gets paid ridiculously big money to get wins out of a football team, and by not having a go at any point or risking nothing - he'll do it more rarely, especially when things are against us. Yeah, it might backfire at times, sure, but if we're already down or desperately need 3 points - yeah, I'd prefer a winger having a go rather than a defensive mid out on the wing, personally.
More to your point - no one's slating him (that I've seen personally, might be wrong I guess) for putting Armstrong out of position and him being asleep for their goal too (together with the other player out of position in JG). I know it's Arsenal, etc. but this will apply and happen in most games, unless we suffer a ridiculous injury crisis - it'll always be the safest possible choice, it's the Moyes way. It's also already been happening for quite a bit this season alone.
It will be the same way even if we're out of the Europe race. Maybe we'll see George start a game or get a full half or something, but the rest likely stays the same unless we get injuries. Historical anomaly if he starts playing all the younger players if he's not pushed to do it. Best we can/usually do is last game of the season when there's nothing to play, but even that's not a guarantee this year.
Again, I'm not saying "Moyes out" with this, but we don't need to defend him being afraid of doing his job here.
That's the point though, if he does and it doesn't pay off it's on him, if he doesn't and it doesn't pay off it's on him..
If other managers aren't scared of making that decision (That they get paid to make) why can't he..
We lost at Arsenal because of an early move to change the game.
We have won games when an early decision changed the game.
One thing we should all be able to see is a year will have passed by these players.
Efcjake
Player Valuation: £80m
What does he gain for himself risking playing the youth?
He's being judged on his ability to get results. He's not going to risk that for the possibility of pleasing people who will immediately look for the next thing to criticize him over.
He's not going to play them for the sake of it like some are demanding. He will play them when they've convinced him they can be trusted to do a job.
And I have definitely seen him slated for playing Armstrong out of position.
The best thing he can do for Moyes and Everton is win as many points as he can.
The same people crying because he won't play a young player will be crying if he doesn't win every match because at the end of the day they simply just hate the man.
brian labone
Player Valuation: £8m
I couldn't agree with you more even down to wanting him out half way through his first stint. I could give lots of reasons why I want him out but I don't want to bore everyone yet again, just please go you with your awful so called football.
Aye and I get that (other than the hate part for him, very davek of people), but also - in a game with us 1 down, or a draw when we need a win (a-la a cup), you know who's getting selected and put on, we all know, the opposition knows. The deemed 'adventurous' player brought on will be in the last 2-3 min, if at all. His trust is not based on on "he can win us the game", it's based on "he can't lose us the game", and even then that fails - this doesn't win us more points and at times we can't even say we've had a go. Obviously that's not 100% of the time, but it's pretty close, especially over both his tenures here (and also a reason he got criticised a lot at WHam, but we as a fanbase are pretending that didn't happen and he got sacked cuz of not playing possession-based football).
And he should get slated for playing Armstrong out of position, 100%. The other options are glued to the bench and got given 35 sec of game time. The result is we lost, and we didn't look like scoring when we made the subs, it was a safety first sub, which is what I meant. It could be the 90th min, it could be the 60th, it could be at HT - 9/10 times the safest option is picked, lest someone make a mistake of some sort (like when the safest optionss do anyway). I sort of get the logic, and he's been in the game for 30 years almost, but it doesn't mean it's the correct logic for every possible game like, sometimes you need some flair to change the game, some unpredictability - teams often do it against us, I'd say Arsenal did it too with Dowman - 30ish min to try and do whatever/however, and he did - if it was the other way around, it'd be Dowman on in the 93rd minute from 94 to not touch the ball and get back inside.
No one is beyond criticism with at least some sort of logical backing behind it - Moyes is overly safe, Ndiaye sometimes (like vs. Arsenal) is caught ball watching in defence, etc. etc., it happens, such is the nature of the game. It's why we looked instantly better under Martinez in his first season - yeah, Lukaku was a HUGE factor, for sure, but so was the fact players weren't afraid to play it out, to try that through ball, to try to run at someone. It all fell apart as soon as it could, but Martinez is the reverse of Moyes in that regard, that he has no safety mode and "doesn't believe in defending" or whatever daft thing he said
He'll get hated on by many people if we'd won the league probably anyway at this rate. Still not as unlikeable as Benitez and Dyche and never will be though, for me at least.
The game he should have got minutes was v Leeds, when we’d switched to a back 3 and was pushing Leeds back all 2nd half and yet the manager thought Myko was suitable at wing back
It’s 2026 and you can make 5 subs. Arsenal had made all 5 by minute 74, at that time we’d made one and of course it was the same one he makes first every game. Striker for striker, maybe George, Dibling, Aznou, Armstrong, wouldt have mage huge differences, but we will never know and it’s not just about maybe trust or if the player isn’t the same level to player on the pitch. It’s about fresh legs. Rhol and Armstrong on 86 and George on 94 was ridiculous. Especially when players were flagging from 65 minutes, like Tim and McNeil.
When the Afcon was on and we had injuries and basically no bench, the argument was what do you want him to do,
That argument doesn’t wash anymore. I haven’t seen the stats, but heard something along the lines of we’re near the bottom of the league for making subs and for subs contributing in games. A penny for George’s thoughts, I doubt he will be rushing to sign for Moyes in the summer
Zatara
Player Valuation: £100m
"Shipped out" ive always taken to mean pushed out.
Bayern wanted to keep him so I'm not really sure what this is referring to";
"But it's the truth, and is perhaps the reason why Moyes hasn't given him a chance"
Quite "damning" to say you're talking poop but "it's the truth".
no they’re not christ sake
Your whole premise is that “shipped out” means pushed out. I’m not sure I agree with that meaning. If you’re a business, shipping out just means sending away. Perhaps in a football context it means not being too fussed about losing him. Perhaps they rated him highly, but it didn’t seem like Bayern put up a fight to keep him, or slap a high price tag on him.
He played 25 minutes for Bayern, went out on loan, and was sold at the end of that season. If they were really keen on keeping him, then surely a season long loan might have been their preference?
JobForTheMoyes
Player Valuation: £50m
Hardly had Paul Lambert-esque impact
JobForTheMoyes
Player Valuation: £50m
If you can remember back when Chelsea had its purple patch with Mourinho, people were saying Ferguson was yesterday’s man and that they need to look to a “younger, more adventurous” coach.
JobForTheMoyes
Player Valuation: £50m
We didn’t have adequate players in the bench. We needed some experienced tough pros, not young novices. We weren’t ups against Wolves, but the league leaders.
