neil999
Player Valuation: £80m
Hang on a minute I remember you suggesting Iwobi as LWB and like an idiot I agreed with you
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I'm not trying to compare the two though, I'm just pointing out that using completely incorrect information to highlight a point really isn't a very good idea. It's fine to just say 'give him time' without making up examples of other people taking ages to have an impact when they didn't.
Our expectations - rightly or wrongly - are much lower than Liverpool's or City's. For me, if Ancelotti gets us 7th this year he'll have done a good job. I'd then be looking for top 6 next year, but pushing past that will be difficult and I completely get that. I won't be saying 'he should have got us top 4 he needs to go' (unless he spends a LOT of money) but I won't shy away from saying I don't think 4 points from our last 6 games is an acceptable return either.
I lay more blame towards Brands than Ancelotti.
Coleman has missed at least 10 league games in all but one of the last five seasons. Why have we gone into this one without a replacement? Same for Digne, why isn't there a replacement - Nkounkou was brought in as 3rd choice behind Baines.
We've been crying out for some pace in the side for YEARS it was evident even when Steve Walsh was here that we had signed a bunch of crabs yet that void still hasn't been filled.
We have 0 impact subs or depth outside the best XI. We let go our only backup ST who, albeit a bit of an enigma, had some drive and directness. But what's worse is we didn't replace him either.
The shockingly bad Newcastle performance aside we were outplayed by Saints and Leeds by teams with so much more energy and pace, particularly in the middle. Against Leeds we went route 1 all game with a punt to DCL - yet nobody around him to pick up a knockdown. We have no real shape or identity and when things ain't going right - and this is a problem we've had for years - we don't seem to know how to change it.
Coleman has missed at least 10 league games in all but one of the last five seasons. Why have we gone into this one without a replacement? Same for Digne, why isn't there a replacement - Nkounkou was brought in as 3rd choice behind Baines.
We've been crying out for some pace in the side for YEARS it was evident even when Steve Walsh was here that we had signed a bunch of crabs yet that void still hasn't been filled.
We have 0 impact subs or depth outside the best XI. We let go our only backup ST who, albeit a bit of an enigma, had some drive and directness. But what's worse is we didn't replace him either.
The shockingly bad Newcastle performance aside we were outplayed by Saints and Leeds by teams with so much more energy and pace, particularly in the middle. Against Leeds we went route 1 all game with a punt to DCL - yet nobody around him to pick up a knockdown. We have no real shape or identity and when things ain't going right - and this is a problem we've had for years - we don't seem to know how to change it.
My mate raised a good point (he's a Leeds fan) about how Bielsa had them playing the exact way he wanted within weeks. Weeks. Not months.
Obviously they ultimately ran out of gas in his first season but they were always bound to be better for that experience and come up next time around.
Why does it seem to take our managers - no matter who they are - to get their message across? Only time it's worked quickly was in Martinez's first season (which ironically I saw today we are only three points worse off than at the same stage), and Martinez inherited a team with very solid foundations so it was more just a sprinkling of attacking freedom.
We see the same issues at other clubs too. Arsenal with Emery and now Arteta a prominent example. It seems to be an accepted norm that teams in the Prem need months to get a new message drilled into them. While stuff takes time, the basics should be there within a few weeks.
Tbf, with Carlo, I think we saw that with the improvement in Dom. It's a singular example, though, and we need to see that across the whole team. Better players help, but we have better players (albeit still short but that's our DoF for you).
ForeverBlue92
Player Valuation: £80m
Hang on a minute I remember you suggesting Iwobi as LWB and like an idiot I agreed with you
Think you have the wrong guy mate
Egil Olsen
Player Valuation: £8m
After 30 games, Klopp had a point average of 1.6, while Ancelott has an average of 1.5. The difference is not big, but it should be added that Ancelott has had the advantage of a pre-season. From now on, Klopp's points average only goes up. In the next 38 games he had a points average of 2. The next 38 games a points average of 2.6, and last season the LFC had a points average of 2.6. So if we are to compare with Klopp, we should from now on expect an increase in Ancelotti's points average. I do not expect Ancelotti to compete with Klopp's points average, but it should be increasing.
Another interesting factor is the age of Salah, Mane, Firminho, Van Dijk, Allison, etc., when they were brought to the club. All were in the age range 23-26. Allan will be 30 during the season, and JR is 29. If we build for success for the future then these are strange investments. Regardless, it will be exciting to look at the development, and see if there will be any progression.
Another interesting factor is the age of Salah, Mane, Firminho, Van Dijk, Allison, etc., when they were brought to the club. All were in the age range 23-26. Allan will be 30 during the season, and JR is 29. If we build for success for the future then these are strange investments. Regardless, it will be exciting to look at the development, and see if there will be any progression.
Saint Domingo
Player Valuation: £80m
For some more completely useless information, if you take Klopp’s points per game from his first 30 games (48 points) when he took over from Rodgers and spread it over 38 games it turns out exactly where they finished, 60 points and 8th place. So effectively he ran a 60 points season form with his Liverpool team for 30 games, continuing the level Rodgers had them at at the start of the season (and the season before)
Ancelotti has played 29 league games and got 46 points, which works out roughly the exact same points per game. Extrapolated over a season of 38 games this would be 60 points.
So although it’s pointless to compare them (which I do agree with), if people were to compare them for any reason then over a comparable number of premier league games (CA’s 29 to Klopp’s 30) then Ancelotti is producing the same form as Klopp did when he took over Liverpool. What should also be factored in is Klopp continued the form of Rodgers team before that who had been at that level of form for the 46 games before that. Ancelotti meanwhile picked up a squad that had been nowhere near 60 points form for any stretch of time and has Substantially improved our keague. So if anything Ancelotti has had a greater impact on Everton in the short term than Klopp did on Liverpool in the league. Given the qualities of the squads they both inherited, the mentalities of those squads, the conditions they’ve had to play in (one starting at the beginning of a season with fans, one starting with a team in trouble and then a pandemic hit) it’s hard to argue that Carlo hasn’t done well so far in the league.
Of course Klopp ironed out those inconsistencies over time to improve. The challenge for Ancelotti is to do the same. Again noting that Klopp improved Liveprool in the league by 16 points the next season and then plateaud at that level for another season actually gaining a point less.
The question we’re therefore asking is can Ancelotti take us from the sort of form that gets you 60 points a season to the type that gets you 76 and CL football? With more of his own signings, more time, maybe some better luck with injuries, why not?
The last few games have been frustrating but I actually think we’re where we should be. We’ve improved but are inconsistent. We need longer to see if the arc is one of progression or regression this season though rather than reactionary responses to individual games.
GwladysBlue
Player Valuation: £70m
It was the fact that they weren’t even in the squad. I’m struggling to think why he thought that was a logical decision.
He had to completely rip up his entire formation during the match when it was blatantly obvious that it was not working.
havrey0123
Player Valuation: £25m
Allan and Rodriguez were bought for immediate success we have tried the let's build for the future tactic before and it failed.
That goes for Leeds as well though mate, they had plenty of chances to have won the game more comfortably than 1-0.
They had 23 attempts on goal with 7 on target, we had 15 attempts with 8 on target.
Egil Olsen
Player Valuation: £8m
You will see the same in teams that Hodgson coaches as well. Not that Bielsa and Hodgson have the same football philosophy, but they have a lot in common when it comes to training methodology. They train endlessly on the different phases of play, defense, defense to attack, attack, attack to defense. They are active on the training field, and stop the game regularly if the players do something wrong.
The players have little freedom - at least until the last third. Bielsa has given his own lectures where he says that there are only 6 ways you can score goals in football, and repeats this constantly in training. Many of the concepts we saw clearly in the match against us. Bielsa himself has said he prefers the players to be like robots. He may have softened up a bit over the years, but he leaves nothing to chance. If you do not do as he says, then you have to find another club. If he does not get support from the owners, then he quits. He never takes on the job as manager, unless he gets a pre-season with the team. Because then he will not be able to implement his ideas.
The downside with this training methodology is that it can be too little varied, the motivation is gradually reduced, and the conflicts increase. You'll see it with Pep in Manchester, and you'll see it with Bielsa in Leeds eventually. Hopefully also with Klopp. But a manager today does not sit in his position for long anyway. SO if you manage to get 3-4 good years, then it's very good. That's more than what a coach is at his job on average.
Can you point me in the direction of the pre season we had please mate. I know we played Blackpool and Preston but I wouldn't exactly call that a pre season would you?
Egil Olsen
Player Valuation: £8m
When? My point, however, was that Liverpool have bought players who have not yet peaked, but will do so in a couple of years. They were all very good players before they came to the LFC, but now they have become world class. They also have a couple of years left at the very highest level.
Egil Olsen
Player Valuation: £8m
I'll take it back.
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