Man City Banned From Europe

[catcherintherye]

I have posted this yesterday and quoted it a couple of times since
Billionaires do not become billionaires without bending and testing the rules and the law to the limit
Usmanov and moshiri know what they are doing
As someone else said City's owners became rich by being born and in A state where they made the rules and only obeyed what they wanted to obey
Moshiri and Usmanov made their money themselves by knowing the rules
As @MarcelsGoat is wont to say
The game is the game and the game stays the same
aS @roydo SAYS ,it is all in the dots.
The first dot was planted when Usmanov GAVE FOR FREE Moshiri 15% of Arsenal and then bought it back for cash
No one seen that dot or any of the other dots either

From my reading of it, in quite base terms is City were extraordinarily reckless (especially early on) and Moshiri has been extra ordinarily careful and professional.

It's actually quite hard to get "caught out" and it's amazing City have managed to be. From the outside it just looks as if they had no intention to even attempt to play the rules. Had they have formed different companies in the UAE, even with Monsour as a big shareholder, they could have given them sponsorship and would have likely got away with it. They seem to have fallen down by lying, and by having him putting money in as an individual.

If you compare that to Usmanov, the is no formal links to the club. Anything that suggests otherwise, from a legal standpoint is pure conjecture. Legal courts aren't interested in conjecture, they are interested in what can be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

It also looks as if Moshiri ok's everything with the PL before announcing it. This is a marked change of tone to City, who seem to have had a FU approach, where they didn't cooperate and seemed to antagonise when questioned about anything. You'll be amazed how far a phone call to the PL/FA before clearing something goes. Just pandering their ego's a bit. I'd hazard a guess, that no sponsorship will be announced without prior clearance.

We were told by the know it alls that the last sponsorship would be blown up. Well here we are a couple of months later, and surprise surprise there is no case to answer.

 

[windymiller]

Why do people think City will end FFP? Clubs have been banned before for failing it and nothing has been done.

City have greater resources than UEFA. One of their lawyers, in the leaked emails ironically, stated that they would spend a fortune tying UEFA up in court for years and years over this. One reason they would do this is to put UEFA's finances under pressure. Tyson and Hughie Fury did it to the UK drug authority and eventually they agreed to a compromise arrangement as they had already spent £600,000 on the case and pursuing it further would have exposed the legality of their regulatory arrangements and bankrupted them. Obviously UEFA are a much larger organisation than UKAD but City have much deeper pockets than the Furys.

Additionally, City have a number of legal arguments (and precedents) that could invalidate the legality of FFP, and indeed UEFA disciplinary and investigatory processes, it will be interesting how up for a fight UEFA are as they have an enormous amount to lose.

My money is on some sort of compromise. Something like a suspended ban and 2 years of squad restrictions.

 

[BigDunc1985]

City have greater resources than UEFA. One of their lawyers, in the leaked emails ironically, stated that they would spend a fortune tying UEFA up in court for years and years over this. One reason they would do this is to put UEFA's finances under pressure. Tyson and Hughie Fury did it to the UK drug authority and eventually they agreed to a compromise arrangement as they had already spent £600,000 on the case and pursuing it further would have exposed the legality of their regulatory arrangements and bankrupted them. Obviously UEFA are a much larger organisation than UKAD but City have much deeper pockets than the Furys.

Additionally, City have a number of legal arguments (and precedents) that could invalidate the legality of FFP, and indeed UEFA disciplinary and investigatory processes, it will be interesting how up for a fight UEFA are as they have an enormous amount to lose.

My money is on some sort of compromise. Something like a suspended ban and 2 years of squad restrictions.

Comparison doesn't work. Behind UEFA are about 10 clubs just itching to break away and leave UEFA behind. They have to stand up on this one. I'd almost say it's better to go to court and lose than compromise, at least then they can say they did all they can.

 

[catcherintherye]

Comparison doesn't work. Behind UEFA are about 10 clubs just itching to break away and leave UEFA behind. They have to stand up on this one. I'd almost say it's better to go to court and lose than compromise, at least then they can say they did all they can.

I think this is a really interesting take. There's no doubt to my mind, that the majority of the existing top clubs are firmly behind FFP and are posturing, as are Manchester City in this. To use a marxian phrase what you are seeing is a split in the ruling elites in the game (in essence a Poulantzian crisis of different blocks of capital).

At this point neither side look willing to back down. This will get very messy.It is the sort of circumstance that would ordinarily lead a war to start in the real world.

As I've said previously they are both now at a point whereby if City win, then FFP is rendered irrelevant. I know that sounds a big phrase, but in law, once a principle is established, it has to go a long way beyond that principle to ever come again. If UEFA lose this case, it is established that Sheikh Monsour can out £50m p/a in to sponsor a teams shirt, and even be deceitful about it. The question would be, how much could he put in if he was honest about it? £100m p/a? That is just to stand still legally. How much would he have directly give to be seen to eb breaking the rules so clearly that it would overturn the other verdict? I think you are looking at at least £200m p/a to be getting close to that point, and probably much beyond that for UEFA to think about taking such action again. It would render FFP completely irrelevant.

This is what's at stake here. Forget "competition rules". They are meaningless once you start getting into real courts, with real laws. The rules apply, but they apply because there is good will to make them comply. I remember David Moyes saying very early on into the transfer windows, that if someone wanted to, they could probably get them overturned legally, but that football had to be seen to give the rules a chance. That's how these rules work. They work as long as the participants want them to work. You require the good will of all the teams too. To be fair UEFA don't seem to have acted with Manchester City in mind much.

If FFP falls I do believe there will be consequences. Possibly a break away league. We will have to see.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

I think this is a really interesting take. There's no doubt to my mind, that the majority of the existing top clubs are firmly behind FFP and are posturing, as are Manchester City in this. To use a marxian phrase what you are seeing is a split in the ruling elites in the game (in essence a Poulantzian crisis of different blocks of capital).

At this point neither side look willing to back down. This will get very messy.It is the sort of circumstance that would ordinarily lead a war to start in the real world.

As I've said previously they are both now at a point whereby if City win, then FFP is rendered irrelevant. I know that sounds a big phrase, but in law, once a principle is established, it has to go a long way beyond that principle to ever come again. If UEFA lose this case, it is established that Sheikh Monsour can out £50m p/a in to sponsor a teams shirt, and even be deceitful about it. The question would be, how much could he put in if he was honest about it? £100m p/a? That is just to stand still legally. How much would he have directly give to be seen to eb breaking the rules so clearly that it would overturn the other verdict? I think you are looking at at least £200m p/a to be getting close to that point, and probably much beyond that for UEFA to think about taking such action again. It would render FFP completely irrelevant.

This is what's at stake here. Forget "competition rules". They are meaningless once you start getting into real courts, with real laws. The rules apply, but they apply because there is good will to make them comply. I remember David Moyes saying very early on into the transfer windows, that if someone wanted to, they could probably get them overturned legally, but that football had to be seen to give the rules a chance. That's how these rules work. They work as long as the participants want them to work. You require the good will of all the teams too. To be fair UEFA don't seem to have acted with Manchester City in mind much.

If FFP falls I do believe there will be consequences. Possibly a break away league. We will have to see.

And if they go a power vacuum opens and billionaires and Kuwaiti, Saudi, Bahrain etc royals buy into clubs like Newcastle, Leeds, Spurs etc all the clubs left behind whilst the super league quickly gets boring and becomes a farce.

 

[catcherintherye]

And if they go a power vacuum opens and billionaires and Kuwaiti, Saudi, Bahrain etc royals buy into clubs like Newcastle, Leeds, Spurs etc all the clubs left behind whilst the super league quickly gets boring and becomes a farce.

Yes I think I agree with that. The super league would be a flop. The CL is already losing importance.

 

[BigDunc1985]

I think this is a really interesting take. There's no doubt to my mind, that the majority of the existing top clubs are firmly behind FFP and are posturing, as are Manchester City in this. To use a marxian phrase what you are seeing is a split in the ruling elites in the game (in essence a Poulantzian crisis of different blocks of capital).

At this point neither side look willing to back down. This will get very messy.It is the sort of circumstance that would ordinarily lead a war to start in the real world.

As I've said previously they are both now at a point whereby if City win, then FFP is rendered irrelevant. I know that sounds a big phrase, but in law, once a principle is established, it has to go a long way beyond that principle to ever come again. If UEFA lose this case, it is established that Sheikh Monsour can out £50m p/a in to sponsor a teams shirt, and even be deceitful about it. The question would be, how much could he put in if he was honest about it? £100m p/a? That is just to stand still legally. How much would he have directly give to be seen to eb breaking the rules so clearly that it would overturn the other verdict? I think you are looking at at least £200m p/a to be getting close to that point, and probably much beyond that for UEFA to think about taking such action again. It would render FFP completely irrelevant.

This is what's at stake here. Forget "competition rules". They are meaningless once you start getting into real courts, with real laws. The rules apply, but they apply because there is good will to make them comply. I remember David Moyes saying very early on into the transfer windows, that if someone wanted to, they could probably get them overturned legally, but that football had to be seen to give the rules a chance. That's how these rules work. They work as long as the participants want them to work. You require the good will of all the teams too. To be fair UEFA don't seem to have acted with Manchester City in mind much.

If FFP falls I do believe there will be consequences. Possibly a break away league. We will have to see.

Agree with this, the fear (for me) is that if it falls City can go all out in a way they've been trying not to before. Plus PSG. And then...

And if they go a power vacuum opens and billionaires and Kuwaiti, Saudi, Bahrain etc royals buy into clubs like Newcastle, Leeds, Spurs etc all the clubs left behind whilst the super league quickly gets boring and becomes a farce.

This happens as well. So it becomes a bunch of billionaires messing around with communities and destroying what little remains of the sport. Even if the other clubs leave English football, do you really want to be part of an arms race with City, Newcastle, Leeds, Spurs, all the London clubs and even potentially a few more? I'd walk away from the sport entirely. FFP is important, and I fully support it. I think every Evertonian should, and more to the point should be furious that it took this long to see repurcussions. We were fifth in 13/14 (behind cheating City), what does today look like if Martinez gets Champions League football in the 14/15 season and is able to spend accordingly instead of only being able to afford Lukaku?

If a stronger Everton gets in the QF of the CL, and gets top 4 again the season after, we're looking at a completely different sequence of events that would almost certainly have us in a better position today than we are.

 

[Lapeno77]

Surely the fact that Rick Parry, ex LFC CEO, season ticket holder etc was on the UEFA panel might be a bit of an issue. Given that the panels punishment would effectively wipe out LFCs main domestic competitor for the next few years

 

[DixieScoresAgain]

From my reading of it, in quite base terms is City were extraordinarily reckless (especially early on) and Moshiri has been extra ordinarily careful and professional.

It's actually quite hard to get "caught out" and it's amazing City have managed to be. From the outside it just looks as if they had no intention to even attempt to play the rules. Had they have formed different companies in the UAE, even with Monsour as a big shareholder, they could have given them sponsorship and would have likely got away with it. They seem to have fallen down by lying, and by having him putting money in as an individual.

If you compare that to Usmanov, the is no formal links to the club. Anything that suggests otherwise, from a legal standpoint is pure conjecture. Legal courts aren't interested in conjecture, they are interested in what can be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

It also looks as if Moshiri ok's everything with the PL before announcing it. This is a marked change of tone to City, who seem to have had a FU approach, where they didn't cooperate and seemed to antagonise when questioned about anything. You'll be amazed how far a phone call to the PL/FA before clearing something goes. Just pandering their ego's a bit. I'd hazard a guess, that no sponsorship will be announced without prior clearance.

We were told by the know it alls that the last sponsorship would be blown up. Well here we are a couple of months later, and surprise surprise there is no case to answer.

It was easier for Moshiri to splash the cash, we hadn't been in Europe every season.

David Conn latest article posted an hour ago is bad news for City, it was reported in the leaks that Mansour was propping up the Etihad deal with wired cash.

But apparently three USA airlines have a complaint about Etihad airlines being propped up by the ruling family, which pretty much confirms the Etihad deal at City was as well as the emails leaked showed.

CAS is never overturning this.

 

[roydo]

Surely the fact that Rick Parry, ex LFC CEO, season ticket holder etc was on the UEFA panel might be a bit of an issue. Given that the panels punishment would effectively wipe out LFCs main domestic competitor for the next few years

Holy cow.

"Finished with my women cos she couldnt help me with my mind"

Paranoid for younger viewers.

 

[Neiler]

I think this is a really interesting take. There's no doubt to my mind, that the majority of the existing top clubs are firmly behind FFP and are posturing, as are Manchester City in this. To use a marxian phrase what you are seeing is a split in the ruling elites in the game (in essence a Poulantzian crisis of different blocks of capital).

At this point neither side look willing to back down. This will get very messy.It is the sort of circumstance that would ordinarily lead a war to start in the real world.

As I've said previously they are both now at a point whereby if City win, then FFP is rendered irrelevant. I know that sounds a big phrase, but in law, once a principle is established, it has to go a long way beyond that principle to ever come again. If UEFA lose this case, it is established that Sheikh Monsour can out £50m p/a in to sponsor a teams shirt, and even be deceitful about it. The question would be, how much could he put in if he was honest about it? £100m p/a? That is just to stand still legally. How much would he have directly give to be seen to eb breaking the rules so clearly that it would overturn the other verdict? I think you are looking at at least £200m p/a to be getting close to that point, and probably much beyond that for UEFA to think about taking such action again. It would render FFP completely irrelevant.

This is what's at stake here. Forget "competition rules". They are meaningless once you start getting into real courts, with real laws. The rules apply, but they apply because there is good will to make them comply. I remember David Moyes saying very early on into the transfer windows, that if someone wanted to, they could probably get them overturned legally, but that football had to be seen to give the rules a chance. That's how these rules work. They work as long as the participants want them to work. You require the good will of all the teams too. To be fair UEFA don't seem to have acted with Manchester City in mind much.

If FFP falls I do believe there will be consequences. Possibly a break away league. We will have to see.

Good post mate and excellent analysis, i think you are spot on.

The subtle dynamics of this within football i think are something that hasn't been openly acknowledged.

I cant see this happening to a Barca, Bayern or Real or an "established" European power. The fact this is City i think hints at a political will of the other European elite around either their fear of new money, or not wanting gate crashers in the European football elite. Wouldn't be surprised to PSG also be hit with something similar soon.

Everywhere you look there is something rotten.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

FIFA could well emerge as the main victors of this spat.

 

[windymiller]

Comparison doesn't work. Behind UEFA are about 10 clubs just itching to break away and leave UEFA behind. They have to stand up on this one. I'd almost say it's better to go to court and lose than compromise, at least then they can say they did all they can.

We'll find out. If they fight City in the courts and lose, they lose everything. There was an interesting take on this in the Guardian (I think) where they pointed out that one of the major problems UEFA have is that as well as being the regulator of European football they are also Man City's competitors in that they sell broadcasting rights, seek sponsorship and sell tickets for the Champions League and the Europa League and the courts may consider this anti-competitive and inherently unfair. In fact City's CEO, Ferran Soriano, argued exactly that point in his book a number of years ago. City are looking to take UEFA all the way, it will be interesting to see if anyone blinks.

 

[windymiller]

And if they go a power vacuum opens and billionaires and Kuwaiti, Saudi, Bahrain etc royals buy into clubs like Newcastle, Leeds, Spurs etc all the clubs left behind whilst the super league quickly gets boring and becomes a farce.

This is true and is a very real risk.

 

[windymiller]

FIFA could well emerge as the main victors of this spat.

Depends on the outcome. If City win a court case against UEFA, it won't be long before someone challenges FIFA over regulatory issues, the international calendar, World Cup Revenues, Club World Cup participation etc.. There could be huge ramifications for sporting regulation more broadly.