Ronald Koeman discussion

[BernieWright13]

But, the manager can hardly be blamed for Stones and Lukaku leaving.
Deulofeu has once again stalled in his career.

Barkley is the one player that may not have been handled well by RK, but Barkley's career had started to stutter before RK arrived and to be fair some of the best performances we saw from Barkley were after harsh words from RK.

I agree about Koeman being unable to prevent Stones or Lukaku leaving. And Ross along with Dela have frequently frustrated. But surely its not too much to have hoped for that a manager on soft lad's kind of salary could have got something approaching the best out of those two (not to mention the rest of this hastily and expensively assembled squad?). This bloke seems to prefer falling out with them. My worry is that Lookman and even Davies may go the same way the longer the clown stays. I've criticized Barkely's lack of progress myself, but things have got so bad that at the moment I'd be thrilled to see him commit and stay under a new regime while we get rid of some of the dross we seem to have acquired instead. Rooney included.

 

[Lanolin]

To be honest it's just opinions and all about current form, which in the case of some of these players is as fickle as you get. Wasn't that long ago Stones was looking like a complete liability for Man City, now the team are performing he is a worldy all of a sudden agan.

Barkley - More average games than top drawer, as far as stats tell us he scored and assisted far fewer than Gylfi last season, but now we are struggling, Gylfi is struggling, thus imo making Barkley's absence a much bigger deal than it actually is. Though don't get me wrong, as I wrote earlier at least he would offer something different to the tepid predictability of the current style of play.

Yes Del has gone back to Barcelona, which you have to think means they value him highly. So far he has not completed 90 minutes in a game for them, his contribution is 2 assists and I am willing to bet it will be a short romance.

Yes Klaassen is a more direct comparison to Cleverley I suppose, I am not going to dispute that.

Yes, pretty much everything we say on here is opinion, and as I said originally, mine is that we do not have a better squad now than we did 18 months ago. That is partly based on our current performances, and partly based on the levels I believe our current squad are capable of reaching at their very best. I used to think we had some outstanding players and just needed a little bit more quality to supplement them, now I think we have a squad full of pretty good players, but I don't see any of them as ripe pickings for bigger fish at the moment, which tells me we're lacking a bit of star quality.

 

[BlueToff]

But when Koeman first came into the club he stated we needed at least one more striker, so in 12 months he should have made sure something was done.

Arsenal have had teams with loads of tippy tippy flair players and no out and out striker. There failing for years was no striker, now it’s no defence.

In truth none of us really know what really happens recruitment wise, whether he has asked for players, or even realistic players. Walsh may have wanted some and Koemans said No. The manager is paid the money to take the rise and fall though.
He doesn’t normally shy away from sticking it to someone, so I’m surprised if other were to blame he hasn’t said so.

It's all well and good criticising Koeman for this but in a DoF system it's ultimately not the manager's responsibility.

He was promised that he would get a striker by Walsh and the board. He was let down in that regard.

But, that's not the reason we're crap. That's down to the manager's tactics.

 

[windymiller]

And more thing. Reports in espn and elsewhere today that koeman wants to buy Williams carvalho, a central defensive midfielder, for 35 million. I had to

Koeman must have some sort of cdm/park the bus mania - i can totally see him playing Schneiderlin, Gueye and carvalho at the same time with 2 or 3 number 10s in front of them- would be koemans dream!

The man is insane, another central midfielder and another defensive one at that! It's like he looks at our squad and thinks, "if only I could play 3 holding midfielders against Huddersfield at home, that would solve our complete lack of any goal threat". He's a dangerous moron and he has to leave. Now.

 

[BernieH]

Again, it's daft to compare one without the other, look at the whole and it's more damning. Look at the away in a singularity and he should be sacked but his home record is not so bad. No point in having a half decent home record if you can't win away(well there is or we'd be relegated),People really should take into consideration the whole picture. It's not a very good one and is declining with each game. Performances alone just aren't up to scratch. Not having an away win since January is indefensible in my opinion. Hopefully it changes soon.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

Is that you Ron?

No , it's the facts Joe.

 

[Joey66]

No , it's the facts Joe.

Look at the league table theirs your facts!

 

[Little Ralphy]

Yes, pretty much everything we say on here is opinion, and as I said originally, mine is that we do not have a better squad now than we did 18 months ago. That is partly based on our current performances, and partly based on the levels I believe our current squad are capable of reaching at their very best. I used to think we had some outstanding players and just needed a little bit more quality to supplement them, now I think we have a squad full of pretty good players, but I don't see any of them as ripe pickings for bigger fish at the moment, which tells me we're lacking a bit of star quality.

While I agree with the sentiment I think you're putting the blame at the wrong door.

Everton don't have the luxury of being able to go out and buy World stars. So they either need to get them before they become household names, or get players further down the pecking order.

Of the star quality players you mentioned -

Stones was brought in by Moyes and took a while to be considered a good signing for a top club. He was persuaded to stay an extra season by the club so he was never a possibility for Koeman, he was going before Koeman even arrived.

Lukaku - was surplus to requirements at Chelsea, highly promising but no big clubs came in for him. Even when he was banging them in for us, it wasn't til this Summer after he said he was leaving (tapped up). I've seen it said that he too was persuaded to stay for another year.

Deulofeu - at him being considered a top player. But Barcelona executed a buy-back clause which was put in before Koeman even joined. Everton couldn't have stopped it if they wanted to.

Barkley - still an Everton player, and I guess his situation is slightly different. Not sure what his deal is, has he fallen out with the manager who got the best out of him? Or does he just want a bigger club to play for. Perhaps he's been badly advised, or maybe he's realised that his media profile is very poor and a move to Spurs would solve that and get him straight in to the England side.

The point though is that none of those 4 players were coveted by top clubs when Everton first signed them. It was the platform that Everton gave them that helped them get to that level. You're saying that none of the current squad are at a top four level, and I agree. But given time, Tom Davies, DCL, Michael Keane and Pickford all have the potential to jib us off for apparent 'bigger and better things' further down the line. As a club, previous manager's should have already had a succession plan in place for those kind of players leaving. Is this why Walsh has been brought in? To ensure that.

Everyone could see we needed leaders, so they sort of went out and tried to bring some in with Williams, Klaasen, Sigurdsson , Rooney etc. I personally think all 4 are a waste of money. For me the transfer business was disjointed, it's like a box ticking exercise - leader? premiership experience? media profile? Koeman stated publicly on numerous occasions that he wanted - and had told the board - a left sided defender and a striker. That suggests to me that he wasn't in charge of the transfer dealings. Sure it sounded like he had a say in them, but he wasn't the one making the decisions.

I've said previously a lack of a striker/goalscorer in games, means we have to work too hard to score goals. This puts pressure on the players from the start, they know they can't make mistakes, as it's unlikely we'll score many goals. This is Everton this season. We tend to start games ok and put pressure on for the first 10-20 mins, but when that goal doesn't come the nervousness sets in, you really have to score when you're on top, and that nervousness spreads right throughout the side (and crowd) and the safety first approach produces dire performances.

Koeman is the figurehead and as such I can see why he's taking the blame from most people, but the problem is deeper than that and I personally think he'll turn it around (with help in January) and I'd be surprised if we finished too far off 7th place come the end of the season. (obviously I think we should be aiming higher as a club).

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

Look at the league table theirs your facts!

Cohesive arguments as ever. What has the league table got to do with someone disseminating lies disguised as facts to besmirch our glorious Dutch leader?

 

[kev101]

 

[Lanolin]

While I agree with the sentiment I think you're putting the blame at the wrong door.

Everton don't have the luxury of being able to go out and buy World stars. So they either need to get them before they become household names, or get players further down the pecking order.

Of the star quality players you mentioned -

Stones was brought in by Moyes and took a while to be considered a good signing for a top club. He was persuaded to stay an extra season by the club so he was never a possibility for Koeman, he was going before Koeman even arrived.

Lukaku - was surplus to requirements at Chelsea, highly promising but no big clubs came in for him. Even when he was banging them in for us, it wasn't til this Summer after he said he was leaving (tapped up). I've seen it said that he too was persuaded to stay for another year.

Deulofeu - at him being considered a top player. But Barcelona executed a buy-back clause which was put in before Koeman even joined. Everton couldn't have stopped it if they wanted to.

Barkley - still an Everton player, and I guess his situation is slightly different. Not sure what his deal is, has he fallen out with the manager who got the best out of him? Or does he just want a bigger club to play for. Perhaps he's been badly advised, or maybe he's realised that his media profile is very poor and a move to Spurs would solve that and get him straight in to the England side.

The point though is that none of those 4 players were coveted by top clubs when Everton first signed them. It was the platform that Everton gave them that helped them get to that level. You're saying that none of the current squad are at a top four level, and I agree. But given time, Tom Davies, DCL, Michael Keane and Pickford all have the potential to jib us off for apparent 'bigger and better things' further down the line. As a club, previous manager's should have already had a succession plan in place for those kind of players leaving. Is this why Walsh has been brought in? To ensure that.

Everyone could see we needed leaders, so they sort of went out and tried to bring some in with Williams, Klaasen, Sigurdsson , Rooney etc. I personally think all 4 are a waste of money. For me the transfer business was disjointed, it's like a box ticking exercise - leader? premiership experience? media profile? Koeman stated publicly on numerous occasions that he wanted - and had told the board - a left sided defender and a striker. That suggests to me that he wasn't in charge of the transfer dealings. Sure it sounded like he had a say in them, but he wasn't the one making the decisions.

I've said previously a lack of a striker/goalscorer in games, means we have to work too hard to score goals. This puts pressure on the players from the start, they know they can't make mistakes, as it's unlikely we'll score many goals. This is Everton this season. We tend to start games ok and put pressure on for the first 10-20 mins, but when that goal doesn't come the nervousness sets in, you really have to score when you're on top, and that nervousness spreads right throughout the side (and crowd) and the safety first approach produces dire performances.

Koeman is the figurehead and as such I can see why he's taking the blame from most people, but the problem is deeper than that and I personally think he'll turn it around (with help in January) and I'd be surprised if we finished too far off 7th place come the end of the season.

I think you misunderstood. I didn't say it was Koeman's fault that we don't have those star players, I was simply responding to somebody who said the squad he took over was rubbish, by pointing out that I actually think the squad he took over was better than the one we have now.

I agree with the principle of what you're saying about our current squad, but I tried to explain in my previous post that I'm talking about my opinion of the likely ceilings of the players we have now. As I said, Keane may go on to be a top class player, but my opinion at the moment is that he will be a (Swansea period)Williams/Jags type performer. That's fine, don't get me wrong, but I don't see him being right out of the top bracket. You scoff at Deulofeu being a top player but he's younger than Keane and playing for Barcelona. He might never be a world star but I'll put good money on it that he experiences things Keane will never come close to. DCL might go on to be great yes, but can you honestly say you've seen anything to suggest he will? I'm not writing him off because there's plenty of time for him to prove me wrong, but I think most would agree that at the moment he looks more likely to be the next Danny Welbeck than Harry Kane. Again, nothing wrong with that but not hugely exciting either.

I don't buy that Koeman doesn't know what's going on with transfer dealings. We've signed THREE players who he's managed before. What are the chances of that, seriously? That of all the players in the world, Steve Walsh has identified 3 players that Koeman has already worked with, and said these are the ones we need. He was on record talking about Rooney last year saying we'd love him here, so we have to assume that was - at least in part - his idea too. Once we've established that at least some of the players we've brought in are Koeman's choices, I simply don't see how we can assume that none of the others are, and he just works with what he's got - it doesn't make any sense.

I agree with a lot of your posts and you talk a lot of sense, but honestly, if we're saying 'I'd be surprised if we finished too far off 7th place' as if it's something to be pleased about, I think it's proof we're on the wrong track.

 

[Toffeelover]

We're 8 games into the season mate, four of those have been against perineal CL teams, I agree we look awful, I just don't believe the root cause in the manger, or whether a new one wouldn't have the same issue.

I think if there is a change and I'd be against it, I think your looking at around Dec, to give the new guy the window etc.

Personally I wouldn't.

I think mate that would be too late for a newcomer. November would IMO be better to give him more time to assess the squad and see them play, but I am sure you will agree this is all speculation.

 

[Toffeelover]

I agree about Koeman being unable to prevent Stones or Lukaku leaving. And Ross along with Dela have frequently frustrated. But surely its not too much to have hoped for that a manager on soft lad's kind of salary could have got something approaching the best out of those two (not to mention the rest of this hastily and expensively assembled squad?). This bloke seems to prefer falling out with them. My worry is that Lookman and even Davies may go the same way the longer the clown stays. I've criticized Barkely's lack of progress myself, but things have got so bad that at the moment I'd be thrilled to see him commit and stay under a new regime while we get rid of some of the dross we seem to have acquired instead. Rooney included.

Does he have something gain flair players? and prefers his plodding will obey type?

 

[royvernon39]

He hasn't spent that much in the great scheme of things.

He has spent 155 million. How much do you think he needs?

The team has no plan, no style, same old mistakes. Calvert-Lewin on the wing when he's not a winger; no winger; Rooney at no 9 no longer works; nearly everybody out of form; two defensive midfielders playing really badly; Gilfi and Rooney not on the same page; no Lookman; no pace, no width... every week is the same and next week we are a quarter through the season.

How could he unload Del Boy? At the weekend Del came on as a sub and helped turn it around against Ath. Madrid. Do you know that Cuco was on the bench against Brighton. Why? He's crap. EFC has barely had any creative play all season yet he unloads Del Boy...

5 goals in 8 premier league games. 13 away games without a win. Is the team getting better under RK?

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

I like Koeman and think he should be given time. It's obvious that there has been potential for problems - with the number of new arrivals, tough fixture list, being back in Europe and not landing the striker and defender he wanted (which was largely outside his control). Need to weather the storm and things should improve with 1-2 more transfer windows. Plenty of potential in the squad and young players

That said, I don't think he is helping the players confidence at the moment, even the way he talks about confidence seems to me like it would put more pressure on them

Also, I think he may have become fixated with Ross Barkley last season - and that was a big driver for the excessive recruitment in the number 10 position - to put pressure on Barkley and show him he could be replaced. And the three number 10's are now a problem for us....