Munich Shooting

[LinekersLegs]

It is probably a bit of a Rorschach test as to what conclusions you draw from this chart but thought I'd present tge data anyhow


Western Europe is defined as:: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Great Britain, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Northern Ireland, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland en Vatican City.

 

[Tigger]

The Islamic terrorist that attacked Nice was paid £85,000 to carry out the atrocity.

That stupid he took payment for a suicide mission, that's what you're up against.

 

[Dymak]

That stupid he took payment for a suicide mission, that's what you're up against.

Reportedly sent the cash to his family beforehand.

 

[peteblue]

Given that the number of those 100,000 refugees that have been dangerous is probably significantly below 0.1%, what is it exactly that people should be so afraid of? It's an ugly time indeed when we become so afraid of our fellow man.

You still don't answer my question Bruce, where are the women and children ?

 

[Tigger]

Reportedly sent the cash to his family beforehand.

They must be so proud.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You still don't answer my question Bruce, where are the women and children ?

Well the UN estimate that half of the Syrian refugees are < 18. We have to remember that the majority of Syrian refugees stay in places like Jordan rather than come to Europe. There are roughly 5 million official refugees in total.

Of those in the Med, the UN estimate that the breakdown is roughly 31% children, 19% women, 51% men.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

I don't know the reasoning behind that and wouldn't like to speculate.

 

[peteblue]

Well the UN estimate that half of the Syrian refugees are < 18. We have to remember that the majority of Syrian refugees stay in places like Jordan rather than come to Europe. There are roughly 5 million official refugees in total.

Of those in the Med, the UN estimate that the breakdown is roughly 31% children, 19% women, 51% men.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

I don't know the reasoning behind that and wouldn't like to speculate.

But this is my point though Bruce. I have no problem in bringing in women, children and the elderly, but why are there so many men. Men who should be looking after their families......something is not right.......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

But this is my point though Bruce. I have no problem in bringing in women, children and the elderly, but why are there so many men. Men who should be looking after their families......something is not right.......

I'm not intimate to their situations. Maybe some don't have families? Maybe given the nature of the crossing, they chose to do it themselves until they were settled and then called for their families who could travel in safer circumstances? I've no idea.

 

[bring back the catt]

Ok, let me put it another way. These people are railing against a way of life. It's a way of life that I like to think is tolerant of those that are different, helpful to those that are in need, and supportive of those that want to better their life. If we say that because 10 of those that we gave shelter to are nutters then we will deny safe harbour to 99,990 people who appreciate our support and cherish the chance to rebuild afresh, then that to me suggests that we've let them win.

I can't really say it any better than Benjamin Franklin.

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Apologies for not replying last night, Bruce, but something needed my attention.
I understand from your post you are not making me out to be uncaring, because the truth is quite the opposite.
I DO care deeply what happens to the innocents, but conjecture too often over-rides the facts, and facts are what we are in short supply of. In order not to create mass panic, in all cases of uncertainty, figures are, should we say, carefully 'doctored'.
My point is, the problems we are faced with today, the refugee crisis, is one problem which has been known about and monitored for FAR too long by World Leaders, and been under-played. The lack of wealth of the region has largely dictated this
The result is that far far too many innocents have been suffering for far far too long. This has resulted in an unnecessary state of unrest in large ares of the world. The exodus of large numbers of people, the great majority are no doubt innocent victims, to safer havens will always create difficulties. it is also reasonable to say that the large number of people with concern, are just that. They are not xenophobes or racist, they need the truth.A commodity in short supply from politicians, but truth is needed in times of uncertainty.
In the absence of facts, it is human nature to believe in innuendo and conjecture.
So let us put the blame where this problem really lies, and that is right on the the doorstep of all the modern day Nero's who have fiddled while this problem has been allowed to reach such drastic levels.
So let's take care of the innocents, let the world leaders actually do their jobs, let's create a safe environment for exiled persons can return to their natural habitat. Job done.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Apologies for not replying last night, Bruce, but something needed my attention.
I understand from your post you are not making me out to be uncaring, because the truth is quite the opposite.
I DO care deeply what happens to the innocents, but conjecture too often over-rides the facts, and facts are what we are in short supply of. In order not to create mass panic, in all cases of uncertainty, figures are, should we say, carefully 'doctored'.
My point is, the problems we are faced with today, the refugee crisis, is one problem which has been known about and monitored for FAR too long by World Leaders, and been under-played. The lack of wealth of the region has largely dictated this
The result is that far far too many innocents have been suffering for far far too long. This has resulted in an unnecessary state of unrest in large ares of the world. The exodus of large numbers of people, the great majority are no doubt innocent victims, to safer havens will always create difficulties. it is also reasonable to say that the large number of people with concern, are just that. They are not xenophobes or racist, they need the truth.A commodity in short supply from politicians, but truth is needed in times of uncertainty.
In the absence of facts, it is human nature to believe in innuendo and conjecture.
So let us put the blame where this problem really lies, and that is right on the the doorstep of all the modern day Nero's who have fiddled while this problem has been allowed to reach such drastic levels.
So let's take care of the innocents, let the world leaders actually do their jobs, let's create a safe environment for exiled persons can return to their natural habitat. Job done.

It's a peculiar situation for sure. There was a lady on Radio 4 this morning basically saying that he incidents in Germany had nothing to do with the refugees of the past few years but were instead 2nd/3rd generation folks living in Germany, but yeah, we need to do something about these refugees. It's a narrative I find incredibly hard to fathom.

I doubt you'll get a single person that doesn't want to ensure that folks get as good a chance as possible to integrate into their host society as that benefits all concerned, and I'm equally in no doubt as to the challenges involved in doing that when numbers are what they have been. The post WW2 period should be fresh enough to remind us of how awful it is when a mass movement of people is handled badly.

Equally though, because something is challenging should not mean that we should not try and take such a challenge on. After all, there's more than enough hate and angst in the world without adding to it (I'm talking in general rather than you personally).

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

I'm not sure you're getting me. I'm not comparing benefit fraud with a terrorist incident, I'm comparing the use of minority behaviours to criticise a much larger group who behave perfectly well. It's exactly what the Mail do with their benefit stories, and it's exactly what you're doing here.

I'm not for one minute suggesting that anyone who loses their life to such attacks is not deserving of our upmost sympathies, but I am saying that what these deranged individuals do should not be a stick with which to beat those who have done absolutely nothing wrong.

Bruce, lad, I am getting you.

It's a lot more than a few bad apples. Martyrs when it's one of theirs copping it, but nothing to do with them when they're beheading people.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce, lad, I am getting you.

It's a lot more than a few bad apples. Martyrs when it's one of theirs copping it, but nothing to do with them when they're beheading people.

It's sadly a bit of a give away that you refer to them as though these folks are a different species to you. They're human beings, same as you and I. All we know is that they happen to have fled from a particular slab of land (and didn't commit any of the atrocities in Germany). Apart from that we kinda know nothing, whether it's preference for pineapple on pizza or anything else.

 

[dholliday]

It is probably a bit of a Rorschach test as to what conclusions you draw from this chart but thought I'd present tge data anyhow


Western Europe is defined as:: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Great Britain, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Northern Ireland, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland en Vatican City.

Conclusions:

1) some deadly attacks from Muslims are left out the stats due to their being classified as 'non-terror' acts.

2) when the killings get to a number where we begin talking about actual civil war I expect the next graph from you will be showing us that during World War 2 there were far more deaths.


A big part of the problem is not admitting there is a problem, and not openly discussing what that problem is. It's a denial process, triggered by previous beliefs being shown up by current events. It's why many Germans took a long time to realise how horrible their Nazi party really was. More recently, this same process is happening to large swatches of the mainstream media regarding the Flüchtlingspolitik of the last 12 months.

This denial process is also evident among kill-happy supporters of drone bombs and arming 'rebels'. At least, it is evident in the ones who still believe in the idealism of bombing Afghani villages, Pakistani weddings and Syrian hospitals because it might kill one or two actual terrorists.


Meanwhile, as ever, innocent people will continue to be murdered. It doesn't matter who these victims are, or how they were killed. What matters is who is doing the killing, and how often is it happening. And that we should classify them all as acts of terror, designed to cause terror and create terror.

And right now in 2016, things are getting really bad.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

All we know is that they happen to have fled from a particular slab of land (and didn't commit any of the atrocities in Germany)

Didn't they?

Oh. If you say so, Bruce. I suppose it was martians then, was it?

 

[dholliday]

It's sadly a bit of a give away that you refer to them as though these folks are a different species to you.

Hiya mate. Where does Dixie say anthing remotely like that?

All we know is that they happen to have fled from a particular slab of land (and didn't commit any of the atrocities in Germany).

Not accurate on both counts. About 10-20% perhaps have actually 'fled', i.e. could and should be classed as refugees. The rest are economic migrants, i.e. could and should be classed as such.

Not separating these two groups has been a huge mistake on the part of the media/governments.


On the other point, it was a Syrian 'refugee' who knifed a pregnant lady to death the other day on a train in Germany. It was a Syrian 'refugee' who blew himself up at a musik festival hoping to take out dozens with him. It was 'refugees' who planned and attacked Paris and Brussels.


The genuine refugees are likely fuming that so many others have been put in the same boat (as a figure of speech) as them.