The (not so great) 4-5-1 Debate

[mkrudden]

So pre-season gives Mr Moyes and the whole blue faithful a chance to recharge their batteries after another season of highs, lows, and 7th place.

With the (lack of) heat in the summer months speculation of our next signings will be at the forefront of everyones mind so that we can look to kick on from August rather than January in this next season.

Could this be the time that our 'Davie' sees as the opportunity to change our tried, tested and sometimes a little boring, 4-5-1 system.

It was implemented by all accounts to get the best out of Timmy Cahill, allowing him to ghost late into the box and take aim with a trademark header. Unfortunately the days of ghosting from number 17 seem to be gone.

I know alot of us are wondering who will take this role in the future, Barkley being one touted. But could Moyes be looking to expand our play with a change of formation?

4-4-2 is slightly out-dated it would seem now. It leaves teams outside the top 4 too open and vulnerable to a passing game exposing pockets of space in between the banks of 4.

The RS tried to reintroduce 3-5-2 this season, and what a catastrophe that was.

Perhaps a 4-2-3-1 that Man City play could give us good variation with our play. Pienaar one side of the 3-pronged attack, with a right winger then a massive priority.

Maybe gentlemen I am speculating for no reason, as Davie will stick to his tried and tested. I just thought it might be refreshing to discuss something which didnt involve our budget of £3 and a packet of everton mints, or every decent (but not amazing) player in the PL and abroad who may come to us...

so without further ado, I ask, men (and women) of GOT....

Discuss... (please) :-)

[micknick]

Bring back the midget gems.

Two holding midfielders playing slightly deeper.

Three more creative players in front

JELAVIC

[Gaz_E]

The Executioners blog on Toffeeweb give a decent breakdown of how we played.

That says we already use 4-2-3-1. The 4-5-1 formation is pretty much 4-3-3, just asking the wide players to defend more.

[MoutsGoat]

We already play 4-2-3-1.

We have 2 holding midfielders, with 2 "wingers" 1 in the hole and 1 upfront.

If we get the "likes" of Donovan and retain Pienaar for the "wings", plus say Barkley(LOL) or even say Dempsey in the hole, it would look more fluid going forward.

I suppose we really play a 4-2-2-1-1.

[Summerskin]

It's the number 10 (Cahill) position we need to look at and vastly improve.

Other premiership teams have Wayne Rooney, David Silva, Van Der Vaart, Juan Mata and Luis Suarez playing in this position.

We have an out of form midfielder who can't pass or shoot, previously 10 goals a season from the little Aussie would have swept this issue under the carpet, but he's been off the boil for so long we really need to replace him.

The gem up front has played well with Timmy these past few months, but he needs someone better to help him score more.

[Brennan]

There's nothing wrong with 4-5-1, if you're using the right players in the right positions. We don't.

[zimblue]

Here's my take.

In the land of the 4-5-1, the 3-4-3 is king.

These days, nearly everyone plays a 4-5-1 or variation (4-4-1-1, 4-2-3-1 etc). It was shown to wipe the floor with the old 4-4-2. Ferguson and Wenger used a 4-4-1-1 in the 90's with the likes of Bergkamp and Cantona in the hole. Then Mourinho went a step further by swapping the creator for a box to box midfielder. Moyes adopted this approach early, allowing us to qualify for the Champions League with a mediocre group of players.

But the problem is now everyone is using the 4-5-1 / 4-2-3-1 / 4-4-1-1 formation. So what's the answer? A few years ago the 4-6-0 was touted as the solution. Pack the midfield and instead of strikers, you'd have "false 9's" who wouldn't play up against the opposing centre backs. The problem was that unless you had midfielders of the quality of Barcelona, goals were difficult to come by.

IMO the real 4-5-1 killer is a 3 at the back formation. Preferably 3-4-3 but also 3-5-2. You simply don't need 4 defenders strung along a line when everyone else is only playing 1 up top. Marcelo Bielsa's Chile and Martinez's Wigan have shown how effective 3-4-3 can be when everyone else is playing 4-5-1. Worth giving it a go surely?

In some ways it's a paper, scissors stone thing. Because the weakness of 3 at the back is, of course, the old 4-4-2 formation with genuine wing play. This is perhaps why 3 at the back never took off in this country.
4-5-1 beats 4-4-2.
3-4-3 beats 4-5-1.
But 4-4-2 beats 3-4-3.

[davek]

There's nothing wrong with 4-5-1, if you're using the right players in the right positions. We don't.

The key to any system.

Moyes would tell you we play 4-4-1-1 most of the time, but he's been kidding himself on that front for 18 months. From the early transfer speculation it looks like the penny has finally dropped and he's looking to replace Cahill.

[BigDunc'sFod]

I'll have a quick bash at what I think an effective formation will be in an FM screen and post it, since my ramblings would make me look insane and everyone would be TL: DR

[just_COYB]

We already play 4-2-3-1.

We have 2 holding midfielders, with 2 "wingers" 1 in the hole and 1 upfront.

If we get the "likes" of Donovan and retain Pienaar for the "wings", plus say Barkley(LOL) or even say Dempsey in the hole, it would look more fluid going forward.

I suppose we really play a 4-2-2-1-1.

Who's this Barkley kid you're talking about? I seem to remember some youngster with that same name, but he's been buried in the academy of some EPL club.

[just_COYB]

The key to any system.

Moyes would tell you we play 4-4-1-1 most of the time, but he's been kidding himself on that front for 18 months. From the early transfer speculation it looks like the penny has finally dropped and he's looking to replace Cahill.

Yes. I think he's looking to bring in a CDM to move Felli up there. I wouldn't be surprised to see Baines move up there, especially with all the strength at LB we have in the academy.

[just_COYB]

Yes. I think he's looking to bring in a CDM to move Felli up there. I wouldn't be surprised to see Baines move up there, especially with all the strength at LB we have in the academy.

Then again, maybe the move is to move Osman in with Gibson, and bring in a right winger.

[BigDunc'sFod]

Attacking:


Defensive


Too bad we don't have the personnel to pull off a 3-1-3-2-1

[Samuwool Girling]

turtles

[Bigmaclad]

I say we play 4-6-1. Much better.

[BlueTornado]

We could go with the classic Stoke formation, no midfield, 6 centrebacks and 4 shoddy strikers up top, no need for a midfield when you've got the hoof.

[Get_Jo_On]

Wow.....I counted 5!!

That's the amount of times my eyes have rolled during this thread. We play a few different formations based on whomever we are playing and their strengths and weaknesses. Moyes is no mug, hence the confusion to what we actually play. It differs, simple as.

[pfim]

Could this be the time that our 'Davie' sees as the opportunity to change our tried, tested and sometimes a little boring, 4-5-1 system.

He changes it quite a bit depending on the opponent.

Stop looking at the players' preferred positions, and look at the actual formations. They've played 4-5-1, 4-4-1-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, and I'm not even taking into account when he takes certain opponents out of the game with formations.

It cracks me up to read that Moyes doesn't change, because the reality is pretty much the complete opposite, he's too reactive at times.

A good summary:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/b...ical-breakdown

[toffeeben15]

I think 4-2-2-2 would be good

[JohnHogg]

Correct me if I'm wrong... But Fella seemed to be able to play the no 10 position quite well the last few games, just completely different than anyone else has ever played it. Looked a bit iffy in attacking positions with the ball at feet, and didn't/can't shoot, but gave the opposition something completely different to think about and no-one dealt with it really well. He gave an "out" for the inevitable long ball and seemed to win a lot to advantage as well... Plays there for Belgium too... Don't mind him staying there tbh.

Why spend x million on a 10 when we could have him already? Spend x mill on a defensive midfielder, much easier.